Garcia Heading Back To The Bay?

[Don]

I told yall, man. IT might go down.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/04/04/garcia-heading-back-to-the-bay/

Garcia Heading Back To The Bay?
Posted by Mike Florio on April 4, 2009, 11:11 p.m. EDT
Quarterback Jeff Garcia, a former starter for the San Francisco 49ers, could soon be playing for the team that resides on the other side of the Bay.

We’re told that Garcia has drawn the interest of the Raiders, and that he possibly could be added to the team in the not-too-distant future.

No deal has been done yet, and as far as we know no offer has been made. But it’s the closest Garcia has come to signing with a new team since hitting the market on February 27.

....

In Oakland, Garcia would join a roster that currently includes JaMarcus Russell, Andrew Walter, and Bruce Gradkowski.

[BlackHeart]

So if we sign Garcia that would mean we will either cut Bruce or make him the 3rd QB or trade or cut Walter or move him to 3rd string.

[Don]

So if we sign Garcia that would mean we will either cut Bruce or make him the 3rd QB or trade or cut Walter or move him to 3rd string.

We could use Walter to move up a few spots in the second or third round..

[BlackHeart]

We could use Walter to move up a few spots in the second or third round..

We shall see how it goes. I think Huff is done in Oakland too. If Huff isn't traded on draft day I'll be shocked.

[LB_RA¹Ð³R]

Can't see Garcia wearing black.. But he's a good QB.. This article say's the deal might get done as early as sunday

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/sports/football/Exclusive-Garcia-Negotiating-With-Raiders.html

[DutchRaider]

We need a good back up QB and Garcia is one of the better QB's still out there. It's Russell's make or break season so if Russell's progress halts he can jump right in.

[Don]

Can't see Garcia wearing black.. But he's a good QB.. This article say's the deal might get done as early as sunday

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/sports/football/Exclusive-Garcia-Negotiating-With-Raiders.html

Crazy. That article is really putting it in the bag. This is a good move, if it happens.

[BlackHeart]

Can't see Garcia wearing black.. But he's a good QB.. This article say's the deal might get done as early as sunday

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/sports/football/Exclusive-Garcia-Negotiating-With-Raiders.html

LOL I was just coming here to post that article.

Hopefully Garcia can push Russell. I'm not so sure about Garcia mentoring skills but its still good to have a capable back-up QB on any team.

[yayarea_raider]

Garcia would be the best Qb to have as a backup if your starter goes down. With the style of offense we run, he'll do good if not better than JaMarcus

[Don]

The 39 year-old quarterback will have the opportunity to compete for the starting position with JaMarcus Russell, though Garcia will likely serve as a backup.



Wow..Missed that line the first time..I wolud not be stoked on a Garcia Home Opener, I gotta say. lol.

[yayarea_raider]

Wow..Missed that line the first time..I wolud not be stoked on a Garcia Home Opener, I gotta say. lol.

As much as Id like to see Garcia play, they shouldn't tell him that. Garcia could play better than Russell, than the staff has a huge predicament on their hands.

[DutchRaider]

Wow..Missed that line the first time..I wolud not be stoked on a Garcia Home Opener, I gotta say. lol.

If he clearly outperforms Russell I say go for it. I know that rookie players like Russell need three seasons to make their mark but the Raiders can't sit on their hands too long if they want to return to greatness. Whatever player gets this team there doesn't really matter to me.

[BlackHeart]

If he clearly outperforms Russell I say go for it. I know that rookie players like Russell need three seasons to make their mark but the Raiders can't sit on their hands too long if they want to return to greatness. Whatever player gets this team there doesn't really matter to me.

Yeah but we can't go with a 39 year old QB right off the bat just so we can win a couple more games. I'm sure on other boards people will see Garcia Vs. Russell threads and Lets start Garcia threads and stuff like that but imo We roll with Russell as our starter and Garcia stands on the sidelines.

Hopefully Russell gets pushed by Garcia and step his game up.

[DutchRaider]

Yeah but we can't go with a 39 year old QB right off the bat just so we can win a couple more games. I'm sure on other boards people will see Garcia Vs. Russell threads and Lets start Garcia threads and stuff like that but imo We roll with Russell as our starter and Garcia stands on the sidelines.

Hopefully Russell gets pushed by Garcia and step his game up.

That would be the ideal situation and I agree that Russell is our best option but if he can't handle it I want a capable QB ready to take over this team. Garcia is good enough IMO, I don't want Walter or Gradkowski anywhere near the field if you ask me :D.

[yayarea_raider]

If you ask me, they should give Jeff George a shot. Start him, trade Russell. Bring back Tim Brown too

:D

im going to sleep

[Don]

Yeah but we can't go with a 39 year old QB right off the bat just so we can win a couple more games. I'm sure on other boards people will see Garcia Vs. Russell threads and Lets start Garcia threads and stuff like that but imo We roll with Russell as our starter and Garcia stands on the sidelines.

Hopefully Russell gets pushed by Garcia and step his game up.

Exactly, just because Garcia's play this season could possibly equate to a few more wins, we are not going to the super bowl, and taking the leadership position away from russell now would be a horrible waste of precious time building on potential long term success.

[BlackHeart]

If you ask me, they should give Jeff George a shot. Start him, trade Russell. Bring back Tim Brown too

:D

im going to sleep

I was embarassed when we signed Jeff George back in 2006. But in 2006 we had a bye year so it never happened.

[BigPrimo]

Weve needed a vet back up for the longest now.

[Jerseyboy]

I wouldn't want Garcia starting. How much longer could he possibly last? This would just ruin Jamarcus. But, if things work out well, Jamarcus will learn from Garcia and become a pretty good QB. As of right now, we have no depth. Garcia is a very solid backup. And if indeed it is an open competition, Jamarcus will have a fire under his ass to produce better results.

[cheapshotartist]

If we sign Garcia it will be as a back up If he can beat out Russell (which I don't think he will do) let him start. I don't care who the QB is as long as we win.
:csa:

[JRaider17]

Garcia as a back up is good, I really don't see Russell losing the competition but who knows.

[silver & black]

If we sign Garcia it will be as a back up If he can beat out Russell (which I don't think he will do) let him start. I don't care who the QB is as long as we win.
:csa:

:Yep As much as I hate the damn slogans... "Just Win Baby!"

[Tooz72]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/sports/football/Exclusive-Garcia-Negotiating-With-Raiders.html


NBC Bay Area has confirmed Garcia is negotiating a deal with the Oakland Raiders. The contract could be finalized as early as Sunday.

A source close to the negotiations tells NBC Bay Area Sports Director Raj Mathai a deal is "close. It will probably get done."

[David]

hell no, why in the world would garcia be welcomed here?

We drafted jamarcus to be our qb for the next 7 years hopefully more

why would we want a noodled armed 40 year old qb?

that would throw away our whole youth movement

by the way guys, have we seen walter with an actual o-line? just sayin...

[sraiderguy]

Maybe Garcia could light a fire under Russell's ass. Russell has good games and bad games. He may be too easy going and Garcia's competetive nature could rub off hopefully.

[Don]

hell no, why in the world would garcia be welcomed here?

We drafted jamarcus to be our qb for the next 7 years hopefully more

why would we want a noodled armed 40 year old qb?

that would throw away our whole youth movement

by the way guys, have we seen walter with an actual o-line? just sayin...

Walter is a wreck, man. HE can do well elsewhere, but he needs a serious vacation from Oakland. I would use him to get a fifth round or move up to the top of the second.

Garcia will not beat out Russell. I do hope that the open comp. is a smoke screen though. He may pick up the concepts quicker because he's learned every playbook out there, but he cant make the throws like Russell. He will push him and and keep him from being comfortable, but Garcia would make a dope change of pace backup...

[-GG-]

I know Garcia is on the slide, but does anyone else feel this may reflect badly on Russell? Remember, Garcia refused to sign last time because he wanted to be starter and didnt like the Raiders unable to guarantee him they wouldnt take Russell in the 2007 draft. So he's back and looking to sign.....i dunno, seems a bit ominous.

[Don]

I know Garcia is on the slide, but does anyone else feel this may reflect badly on Russell? Remember, Garcia refused to sign last time because he wanted to be starter and didnt like the Raiders unable to guarantee him they wouldnt take Russell in the 2007 draft. So he's back and looking to sign.....i dunno, seems a bit ominous.

Here's the deal, GG.
I posted that Garcia would most likely end up with the Raiders weeks ago at biscuitskickass, because my uncle had been told that by Garcia's parents. His dad is close with my wife's family here in Gilroy, and said they had numerous phone discussions and even a sit down to discuss it.
Basically right after the TB firing, they were on him. Getting a veteran QB backup was top priority. But like 2007, Garcia said he wanted to check out the market for a chance to start, but being realistic, didn't tell Al "NO".
Since drawing literally zero interest, this is the best place for him to end his NFL career as he is literally an hour away from his family and hometown.

I think the competition line has to be a smokescreen. Al must have told him he has no chance to really open up the season, but I'm sure if Russell stinks it up the first, say five games, a benching wouldn't be out of the question.
Think Titans part two.

[Boom]

Yeah but we can't go with a 39 year old QB right off the bat just so we can win a couple more games. I'm sure on other boards people will see Garcia Vs. Russell threads and Lets start Garcia threads and stuff like that but imo We roll with Russell as our starter and Garcia stands on the sidelines.

Hopefully Russell gets pushed by Garcia and step his game up.

I agree, It would just put a stop sign in Russell's progression. Starting Garcia is just another quick fix, we need to think of the future and stick with Russell. Garcia is also already 39yrs. old, I mean how much does he have left in the tank, he's practically running on fumes already.

[Boom]

I wouldn't want Garcia starting. How much longer could he possibly last? This would just ruin Jamarcus. But, if things work out well, Jamarcus will learn from Garcia and become a pretty good QB. As of right now, we have no depth. Garcia is a very solid backup. And if indeed it is an open competition, Jamarcus will have a fire under his ass to produce better results.

True, it will motivate the hell out of him.

[ROCKET]

Garcia is 40...Thats all Im gonna say.

[sraiderguy]

Garcia is 40...Thats all Im gonna say.

Last time Raiders were good the roster was saturated with older playmakers; Rice, Brown, Gannon, Woodson , Romo, etc..................

Not sayin Garcia would bring glory, but I wouldn't knock his age.

[el boracho]

i dont care how how old the dude is ..He can still ball and hes a good backup...its not like hes in the plans for long term...Good pickup in my opinion if it goes down...

[Sonny Cheeba]

Guys it's obvious, we're signing him to run the wildcat formation.

[Poke]

Garcia just wants to be closer to his favorite hood. The Castro in SF.

[-GG-]

Here's the deal, GG.
I posted that Garcia would most likely end up with the Raiders weeks ago at biscuitskickass, because my uncle had been told that by Garcia's parents. His dad is close with my wife's family here in Gilroy, and said they had numerous phone discussions and even a sit down to discuss it.
Basically right after the TB firing, they were on him. Getting a veteran QB backup was top priority. But like 2007, Garcia said he wanted to check out the market for a chance to start, but being realistic, didn't tell Al "NO".
Since drawing literally zero interest, this is the best place for him to end his NFL career as he is literally an hour away from his family and hometown.

I think the competition line has to be a smokescreen. Al must have told him he has no chance to really open up the season, but I'm sure if Russell stinks it up the first, say five games, a benching wouldn't be out of the question.
Think Titans part two.

There's an inside source you can trust! Thanks, bro. Well, that makes more sense. Still, I wouldnt be surprised or upset to see Garcia starting for us by mid-year. I mean, this is Russell's Waterloo right now. If he doesnt cement himself as a franchise QB, then Garcia still has it to come in and lead the team to Wins, with his nous and experience, if Russell busts, then we'll likely be on the market for another long-term QB, like some young back-up.

Hopefully, also, Garcia being around Russell will mentor him how to take his job seriously, what he has to do, how to train, etc. I do admit to feeling uneasy about Russell tho, this is the year he makes it or breaks it.

[Miklo]

I agree with what Don posted. Regardless of how much we want to win, this has to be Russell's team IMO. If Garcia were to start this season, and we win some games, what happens next year? Russell's progression was halted for a few more wins this season, and we have to start from this point again next year. Essentially, we lose a whole year. I don't mind Garcia as a backup in case something happens to Russell, maybe he can even teach him a few things, but I'd only bring him in with the understanding that he is 100% the backup.

[Boom]

There's an inside source you can trust! Thanks, bro. Well, that makes more sense. Still, I wouldnt be surprised or upset to see Garcia starting for us by mid-year. I mean, this is Russell's Waterloo right now. If he doesnt cement himself as a franchise QB, then Garcia still has it to come in and lead the team to Wins, with his nous and experience, if Russell busts, then we'll likely be on the market for another long-term QB, like some young back-up.

Hopefully, also, Garcia being around Russell will mentor him how to take his job seriously, what he has to do, how to train, etc. I do admit to feeling uneasy about Russell tho, this is the year he makes it or breaks it.

I disagree.. Last year really was Russell's rookie season. his true rookie season was a waste due to Lame Kiffins' dumb ass. I'm not trying to sugar coat anything, but Russell deserves at least two more years to prove himself.

[-GG-]

I disagree.. Last year really was Russell's rookie season. his true rookie season was a waste due to Lame Kiffins' dumb ass. I'm not trying to sugar coat anything, but Russell deserves at least two more years to prove himself.

Two more years? By then Stafford and Sanchez would've either passed or failed their own litmus tests, become busts or booms.

Russell's 2007 wasnt a total free-ride, he still had to learn the playbook, which he never did. Still didnt train and keep his weight down (see Raiders secretly worried about his 285 lbs situation, tho publicly scoffing at it), and thru most of 2008 he still hadnt learned the playbook, was being given bits and pieces of it, still taking Tuesdays off and skipping things. Even this off-season he was absent for a time.

Meanwhile, Matt Ryan, sure his stats and team around him, etc, but he had the whole playbook down pat by the first month of the regular season (as confirmed by his coaches). That's a guy about 2-3 months into his rookie season. While Russell has had 48+ months and is still being mollycoddled by us fans with "give him another 2 years".

One could justifiably say.....the ONLY reason he's being given all this time is because $35m guaranteed and a #1 overall. Where was Andrew Walter's 4 years of starting before he would be judged a bust or not? The guy had 8 starts in the bed-breakfast era, 72 sacks season, and has NEVER gotten fair treatment about "give him 4 yrs time, an OL, weapons, and THEN judge him". Just because he's a 2nd rounder and on minimum salary one can totally shoot him down after 8 starts? But not Russell? Why? Im saying it's all just because of where Russell was drafted and how much he got paid, otherwise he'd be sitting on the bench last two seasons as someone who just "doesnt get it", career back-up, a Kyle Boller type.

[-GG-]

With Russell.....the thing is he has the physical tools, that's why his ceiling is so high, IF IF IF he could work and train his mind and attitude, if he had Ryan's brains he would be "an Elway", but that's the whole point with Russell, guy with a lot of physical ability who is lazy or too slow learner. Ryan will out-grow Russell as a QB purely by mental abilities and intangibles regardless of limited physical ability...IF IF IF Russell's attitude remains lazy, half-assed, etc.

[Boom]

Two more years? By then Stafford and Sanchez would've either passed or failed their own litmus tests, become busts or booms.

Russell's 2007 wasnt a total free-ride, he still had to learn the playbook, which he never did. Still didnt train and keep his weight down (see Raiders secretly worried about his 285 lbs situation, tho publicly scoffing at it), and thru most of 2008 he still hadnt learned the playbook, was being given bits and pieces of it, still taking Tuesdays off and skipping things. Even this off-season he was absent for a time.

Meanwhile, Matt Ryan, sure his stats and team around him, etc, but he had the whole playbook down pat by the first month of the regular season (as confirmed by his coaches). That's a guy about 2-3 months into his rookie season. While Russell has had 48+ months and is still being mollycoddled by us fans with "give him another 2 years".

One could justifiably say.....the ONLY reason he's being given all this time is because $35m guaranteed and a #1 overall. Where was Andrew Walter's 4 years of starting before he would be judged a bust or not? The guy had 8 starts in the bed-breakfast era, 72 sacks season, and has NEVER gotten fair treatment about "give him 4 yrs time, an OL, weapons, and THEN judge him". Just because he's a 2nd rounder and on minimum salary one can totally shoot him down after 8 starts? But not Russell? Why? Im saying it's all just because of where Russell was drafted and how much he got paid, otherwise he'd be sitting on the bench last two seasons as someone who just "doesnt get it", career back-up, a Kyle Boller type.



What kind of time frame do you give a rookie QB to show either boom or bust?


For the record, I always thought Walter never had a legitimate shot and didn't even want to draft Russell because of that reason. And as for Russell, he was practically left alone on an island. He sat out his entire rookie season except for the last game. It is mostly Lame Kiffins' fault for Russells' slow progress. Lame decide to start McCown over Russell. Was it a dog house move? Who knows? But to compare him to Ryan and Flaco doesn't justify anything, they had the more complete team and better supporting cast to blow Russell out of the water. Our team was practically a one dimensional offensive team, because we couldn't pass protect, we tried to mask it with the rushing attack, but teams figured that out quickly and we basically had no chance.

As for learning the playbook, it really doesn't matter, because kiffin and Knapp is gone.. That's the thing too, how can the team as a whole improve if we keep changing coaching philosphies? There isn't any consistancy. Everything plays a toll to Russells' improvement. Hopefully we can keep coach Cable and company together for years to come, and hopefully he doesn't call dumb plays like he has in the past or at least keep the bonehead plays to a minimum.

Lastly, Russell needs to put the time and desire in to become an all pro QB. Payton Manning and Tom Brady didn't become the QB's they have from just going to practice, they went beyond that on their own time. Russell needs to take notes from these guys.

[yayarea_raider]

Two more years? By then Stafford and Sanchez would've either passed or failed their own litmus tests, become busts or booms.

Russell's 2007 wasnt a total free-ride, he still had to learn the playbook, which he never did. Still didnt train and keep his weight down (see Raiders secretly worried about his 285 lbs situation, tho publicly scoffing at it), and thru most of 2008 he still hadnt learned the playbook, was being given bits and pieces of it, still taking Tuesdays off and skipping things. Even this off-season he was absent for a time.

Meanwhile, Matt Ryan, sure his stats and team around him, etc, but he had the whole playbook down pat by the first month of the regular season (as confirmed by his coaches). That's a guy about 2-3 months into his rookie season. While Russell has had 48+ months and is still being mollycoddled by us fans with "give him another 2 years".

One could justifiably say.....the ONLY reason he's being given all this time is because $35m guaranteed and a #1 overall. Where was Andrew Walter's 4 years of starting before he would be judged a bust or not? The guy had 8 starts in the bed-breakfast era, 72 sacks season, and has NEVER gotten fair treatment about "give him 4 yrs time, an OL, weapons, and THEN judge him". Just because he's a 2nd rounder and on minimum salary one can totally shoot him down after 8 starts? But not Russell? Why? Im saying it's all just because of where Russell was drafted and how much he got paid, otherwise he'd be sitting on the bench last two seasons as someone who just "doesnt get it", career back-up, a Kyle Boller type.

Walter was a third round pick, but still I agree and they didn't give him a fair shot. But relaistically Walter didn't fit Kiffin's style, but I don't think Russell did either, so tat's a moot point. For the record I was pissed that it wasn't Brady Quinn we drafted.

But seriously, I was down with Walter and didn't want them to draft a QB number one but knew they would.

Your argument of how Ryan had the playbook down and such...well he is a much, much more polished QB than Russell coming out of college, along with Flacco.

I think this year, how Russell does will determine where he is ultimately at. He'll have a better OL, but the question is if he'll have a better defense and a healthy WR core.

I think JaMarcus will be fine honestly GG. He has Paul Hackett working with him, and that's good enough for me.

[BlackHeart]

I knew it was only a matter of time for gg to mention Walter. LOL

[GenRaider]

Garcia is better than what we have as backups. Let him push JR.

[-GG-]

It's the little things that are troublesome. Forget talent and supporting cast. And look at these as examples....

Ryan learns whole playbook in 2-3 months. Russell doesnt in 48 months.
Ryan doesnt hold out for more money. Russell has the longest rookie hold out in history over an extra few million.
Russell comes to the combine overweight, flabby, unkempt, while the gung-ho QBs go there in trim.
Russell talks about the money a lot more and spends the next 3 years focusing on bling.
Russell ballooned to 285 lbs, enough to have the Raiders secretly worried.
Russell misses NFL Films interviews, skips Tuesdays here and there, half-asses physical training, etc.
Russell in 2009 off-season reports late after the Coach has to publicly question him.

It's THOSE things that are the problem, and which infect his onfield playing. There are many physically gifted players who disappointed in the pros due to just that---attitude, slacking off, money, fame, name, etc.

I dont particularly say Walter is the answer, just using him as a comparison to Russell in this whole "how much time does one deserve before being trashed" debate. If Walter was still passionate about football he MIGHT become a Raider starter if Russell busts this season or next. But Walter may have already resigned himself to being a career back-up, or just for now during these Russell years. But I wouldnt give Russell anymore than mid-year 2009 to prove himself otherwise trade/cut him. If you give him "2 more years" then he'll just slacken off more, take it easy, meal-ticket, and never learn to become a genuine franchise QB. If I were Cable/Davis, I'd tell him this is your Waterloo right now, make or break, if you dont perform by mid-season we'll further restructure you to minimum salary and trade you because you blew it, and are now not worth much around the league.

[GenRaider]

It's the little things that are troublesome. Forget talent and supporting cast. And look at these as examples....

Ryan learns whole playbook in 2-3 months. Russell doesnt in 48 months.
Ryan doesnt hold out for more money. Russell has the longest rookie hold out in history over an extra few million.
Russell comes to the combine overweight, flabby, unkempt, while the gung-ho QBs go there in trim.
Russell talks about the money a lot more and spends the next 3 years focusing on bling.
Russell ballooned to 285 lbs, enough to have the Raiders secretly worried.
Russell misses NFL Films interviews, skips Tuesdays here and there, half-asses physical training, etc.
Russell in 2009 off-season reports late after the Coach has to publicly question him.

It's THOSE things that are the problem, and which infect his onfield playing. There are many physically gifted players who disappointed in the pros due to just that---attitude, slacking off, money, fame, name, etc.

I dont particularly say Walter is the answer, just using him as a comparison to Russell in this whole "how much time does one deserve before being trashed" debate. If Walter was still passionate about football he MIGHT become a Raider starter if Russell busts this season or next. But Walter may have already resigned himself to being a career back-up, or just for now during these Russell years. But I wouldnt give Russell anymore than mid-year 2009 to prove himself otherwise trade/cut him. If you give him "2 more years" then he'll just slacken off more, take it easy, meal-ticket, and never learn to become a genuine franchise QB. If I were Cable/Davis, I'd tell him this is your Waterloo right now, make or break, if you dont perform by mid-season we'll further restructure you to minimum salary and trade you because you blew it, and are now not worth much around the league.

Give RYAN 3 different play-callers and let see how good he is. Furthermore, you put him in Oakland last year and I doubt he does any better than JR...

[Boom]

It's the little things that are troublesome. Forget talent and supporting cast. And look at these as examples....

Ryan learns whole playbook in 2-3 months. Russell doesnt in 48 months.
Ryan doesnt hold out for more money. Russell has the longest rookie hold out in history over an extra few million.
Russell comes to the combine overweight, flabby, unkempt, while the gung-ho QBs go there in trim.
Russell talks about the money a lot more and spends the next 3 years focusing on bling.
Russell ballooned to 285 lbs, enough to have the Raiders secretly worried.
Russell misses NFL Films interviews, skips Tuesdays here and there, half-asses physical training, etc.
Russell in 2009 off-season reports late after the Coach has to publicly question him.

It's THOSE things that are the problem, and which infect his onfield playing. There are many physically gifted players who disappointed in the pros due to just that---attitude, slacking off, money, fame, name, etc.

I dont particularly say Walter is the answer, just using him as a comparison to Russell in this whole "how much time does one deserve before being trashed" debate. If Walter was still passionate about football he MIGHT become a Raider starter if Russell busts this season or next. But Walter may have already resigned himself to being a career back-up, or just for now during these Russell years. But I wouldnt give Russell anymore than mid-year 2009 to prove himself otherwise trade/cut him. If you give him "2 more years" then he'll just slacken off more, take it easy, meal-ticket, and never learn to become a genuine franchise QB. If I were Cable/Davis, I'd tell him this is your Waterloo right now, make or break, if you dont perform by mid-season we'll further restructure you to minimum salary and trade you because you blew it, and are now not worth much around the league.

I doubt Al will say that to Russell. I remember Al during his pc saying that Russell can play ball. I believe that Al will give him time to prove himself, besides we all know that potential has a lifespan of a hundred years in Oakland.

[Sonny Cheeba]

It's the little things that are troublesome. Forget talent and supporting cast. And look at these as examples....

Ryan learns whole playbook in 2-3 months. Russell doesnt in 48 months.
Ryan doesnt hold out for more money. Russell has the longest rookie hold out in history over an extra few million.
Russell comes to the combine overweight, flabby, unkempt, while the gung-ho QBs go there in trim.
Russell talks about the money a lot more and spends the next 3 years focusing on bling.
Russell ballooned to 285 lbs, enough to have the Raiders secretly worried.
Russell misses NFL Films interviews, skips Tuesdays here and there, half-asses physical training, etc.
Russell in 2009 off-season reports late after the Coach has to publicly question him.

It's THOSE things that are the problem, and which infect his onfield playing. There are many physically gifted players who disappointed in the pros due to just that---attitude, slacking off, money, fame, name, etc.

I dont particularly say Walter is the answer, just using him as a comparison to Russell in this whole "how much time does one deserve before being trashed" debate. If Walter was still passionate about football he MIGHT become a Raider starter if Russell busts this season or next. But Walter may have already resigned himself to being a career back-up, or just for now during these Russell years. But I wouldnt give Russell anymore than mid-year 2009 to prove himself otherwise trade/cut him. If you give him "2 more years" then he'll just slacken off more, take it easy, meal-ticket, and never learn to become a genuine franchise QB. If I were Cable/Davis, I'd tell him this is your Waterloo right now, make or break, if you dont perform by mid-season we'll further restructure you to minimum salary and trade you because you blew it, and are now not worth much around the league.
The only thing I will add to this....

You know Ryan has a bigger contract that Russell, right? Ryan got more guaranteed $$$ than Jake Long did, he got $35 mil up front from the the 3rd overall slot. ATL wanted to rid themselves of the Mike Vick era as quick as possible, and that's why they took Ryan and offered him that outrageous contract.

ATL also had a top 3 rushing attack with Mike Turner, and Roderick White emerged into a legit, go-to no. 1 WR target.

[-GG-]

Gen, Boom, Buck....

You still missed the point I made. I said, ignore those things, and focus on the core of the attitude situation. Forget all this, Ryan had more playmakers, Ryan had a better defense, Ryan didnt have 3 playcallers, etc. Point is, Ryan in 2-3 months had THE playbook memorized. While Russell, while still under Kiffin, didnt by years end, nor by year two's end. Forget all the other stuff for now. Im just talking about attitude. Same with all the Money, overweight, combine, skipping tuesdays, etc thing. All that's got nothing to do with anything but one's own attitude to their job.

[-GG-]

Ryan didnt hold out for 4 months just to get an extra $3m. Russell did. Obviously Ryan got more money, because every season it inflates. Im talking about the contract itself offered and accepted. Ryan didnt hold out for 4 months, Russell did. Ryan didnt show up to Combine overweight, Russell did. Ryan didnt take 48 months to learn the playbook, Russell did. He may have had 3 different playcallers, but in his two years so far, it's the same playbook he had from day one. Ryan didnt skip NFL Film interviews or skip Tuesdays every now and then, show up late for training, half-ass out of physical regimens. Russell did. That's the stuff Im referring to.

IF by mid-year Russell's onfield form is up/down, or falling down, the reason would be not talent but his attitude, him slacking off. If that's happening by mid-season, Russell not improving dramatically to show #1 overall type validation, then he is busting, has slackened off, allowing that piss-poor attitude to affect his development, slowing it down, still meandering in mediocrity after 2.5 years in the NFL, while others less talented but more committed (Ryan) are working harder to not fall by the wayside. If you give Russell carte-blanche with this "2 more years to 'get it'" easy-ride, then you're only fostering his busting more, you need to light his ass n.o.w. and make him realize his ass is on the line, make the jump to elite NFL QB that your #1 draft status came with, or we'll ship you out.

[Boom]

Gen, Boom, Buck....

You still missed the point I made. I said, ignore those things, and focus on the core of the attitude situation. Forget all this, Ryan had more playmakers, Ryan had a better defense, Ryan didnt have 3 playcallers, etc. Point is, Ryan in 2-3 months had THE playbook memorized. While Russell, while still under Kiffin, didnt by years end, nor by year two's end. Forget all the other stuff for now. Im just talking about attitude. Same with all the Money, overweight, combine, skipping tuesdays, etc thing. All that's got nothing to do with anything but one's own attitude to their job.

So in other words you are not happy with Russells' ambition to be a starting QB. Well to tell you the truth nobodys happy with his progress thus far either, and everybody pretty much agrees that he should study harder. How do you know that Ryan knows Atlanta's playbook like the back of his hand? It seems to me that Atlanta rushed the ball more than they passed, very much like what we did. Did you watch every pass Ryan threw, I didn't. I'm guessing that he had very limited plays.

[BigPrimo]

Well bottom line is JRuss needs to produce and lead this team or kick rocks!!!

[Sonny Cheeba]

Ryan didnt hold out for 4 months just to get an extra $3m. Russell did. Obviously Ryan got more money, because every season it inflates. Im talking about the contract itself offered and accepted. Ryan didnt hold out for 4 months, Russell did. Ryan didnt show up to Combine overweight, Russell did. Ryan didnt take 48 months to learn the playbook, Russell did. He may have had 3 different playcallers, but in his two years so far, it's the same playbook he had from day one. Ryan didnt skip NFL Film interviews or skip Tuesdays every now and then, show up late for training, half-ass out of physical regimens. Russell did. That's the stuff Im referring to.

IF by mid-year Russell's onfield form is up/down, or falling down, the reason would be not talent but his attitude, him slacking off. If that's happening by mid-season, Russell not improving dramatically to show #1 overall type validation, then he is busting, has slackened off, allowing that piss-poor attitude to affect his development, slowing it down, still meandering in mediocrity after 2.5 years in the NFL, while others less talented but more committed (Ryan) are working harder to not fall by the wayside. If you give Russell carte-blanche with this "2 more years to 'get it'" easy-ride, then you're only fostering his busting more, you need to light his ass n.o.w. and make him realize his ass is on the line, make the jump to elite NFL QB that your #1 draft status came with, or we'll ship you out.
I really don't think the holdout thing can be evenly compared. The Raiders had never before had the 1st overall pick so you know damn well that Al would exhaust every avenue to make sure nothing was out of place. And Ryan, I mean seriously, if you're the 3rd pick in the draft and your team comes out and offers your MORE GUARANTEED $$$ than the 1st overall pick got....you can't use that as a legit argument to saying Ryan is more dedicated or whatever.....they dropped a CRAPLOAD of money in his lap, Ryan's agent wasn't about to turn that down.

[yayarea_raider]

It's the little things that are troublesome. Forget talent and supporting cast. And look at these as examples....

Ryan learns whole playbook in 2-3 months. Russell doesnt in 48 months.
Ryan doesnt hold out for more money. Russell has the longest rookie hold out in history over an extra few million.
Russell comes to the combine overweight, flabby, unkempt, while the gung-ho QBs go there in trim.
Russell talks about the money a lot more and spends the next 3 years focusing on bling.
Russell ballooned to 285 lbs, enough to have the Raiders secretly worried.
Russell misses NFL Films interviews, skips Tuesdays here and there, half-asses physical training, etc.
Russell in 2009 off-season reports late after the Coach has to publicly question him.

It's THOSE things that are the problem, and which infect his onfield playing. There are many physically gifted players who disappointed in the pros due to just that---attitude, slacking off, money, fame, name, etc.

I dont particularly say Walter is the answer, just using him as a comparison to Russell in this whole "how much time does one deserve before being trashed" debate. If Walter was still passionate about football he MIGHT become a Raider starter if Russell busts this season or next. But Walter may have already resigned himself to being a career back-up, or just for now during these Russell years. But I wouldnt give Russell anymore than mid-year 2009 to prove himself otherwise trade/cut him. If you give him "2 more years" then he'll just slacken off more, take it easy, meal-ticket, and never learn to become a genuine franchise QB. If I were Cable/Davis, I'd tell him this is your Waterloo right now, make or break, if you dont perform by mid-season we'll further restructure you to minimum salary and trade you because you blew it, and are now not worth much around the league.

trade or cut him if he doesn't do well by mid-season? jeez GG thats some crazy sh!t right there

[-GG-]

Well bottom line is JRuss needs to produce and lead this team or kick rocks!!!

Exactly. That in a nutshell. No excuses. His attitude has to rise and meet the challenge. The world is full of talented people who never made it due to poor attitude, passion, commitment.

[Boom]

I really don't think the holdout thing can be evenly compared. The Raiders had never before had the 1st overall pick so you know damn well that Al would exhaust every avenue to make sure nothing was out of place. And Ryan, I mean seriously, if you're the 3rd pick in the draft and your team comes out and offers your MORE GUARANTEED $$$ than the 1st overall pick got....you can't use that as a legit argument to saying Ryan is more dedicated or whatever.....they dropped a CRAPLOAD of money in his lap, Ryan's agent wasn't about to turn that down.

True, if your gonna blame someone for holdouts, you gotta blame their agents. It's a sport, but bottom line, it's a bussiness too

[yayarea_raider]

I doubt Al will say that to Russell. I remember Al during his pc saying that Russell can play ball. I believe that Al will give him time to prove himself, besides we all know that potential has a lifespan of a hundred years in Oakland.

Al wouldn't take a QB number one after Marinavich if he wasn't the real deal...at least to him. I'd say if Russell doesn't do above average this year, and perform well next year, then they talk about moving him/cutting him.

M. Ryan was a much more polished player than JaMarcus.

[Boom]

Al wouldn't take a QB number one after Marinavich if he wasn't the real deal...at least to him. I'd say if Russell doesn't do above average this year, and perform well next year, then they talk about moving him/cutting him.

M. Ryan was a much more polished player than JaMarcus.

Quote me on this... "Regardless of play, Russell isn't going to be benched this year."

[GenRaider]

Gen, Boom, Buck....

You still missed the point I made. I said, ignore those things, and focus on the core of the attitude situation. Forget all this, Ryan had more playmakers, Ryan had a better defense, Ryan didnt have 3 playcallers, etc. Point is, Ryan in 2-3 months had THE playbook memorized. While Russell, while still under Kiffin, didnt by years end, nor by year two's end. Forget all the other stuff for now. Im just talking about attitude. Same with all the Money, overweight, combine, skipping tuesdays, etc thing. All that's got nothing to do with anything but one's own attitude to their job.

Really? Is it a fact that JR never memorized the playbook? Not saying you or right or wrong, but I just need some factual info behind this.

[yayarea_raider]

Really? Is it a fact that JR never memorized the playbook? Not saying you or right or wrong, but I just need some factual info behind this.

yeah, how do you know he hasn't memorized it yet GG or even after 07' or during

[-GG-]

The significance of holdout/contract/playbook....

Ryan accepted a good contract....meaning he rolled his sleeves up, realized the whole franchise depended on him coming in and being the starter, the leader, from the get-go. He got cracking. While Russell didnt at all. He wanted more money, more conditions, didnt accept the responsibility of him being the leader, the starter. He held out for 4 months!! When he finally came, he was overweight again, STILL hadnt memorized the playbook, they needed to burn it on DVD for him to play on his damned 100" flat screen TV, and thru 2007 STILL hadnt learned the playbook when he eventually started in game 14/15/16. And thru 2008, as a starter, he STILL hadnt memorized the playbook. Ryan is acknowledged by his coaches and NFL analysts as having learned the whole playbook by 2-3 months into the regular season. They may not have called every play, been more run-focused here and there to make his journey thru his rookie season easier, but he had it down pat is the point.

The significance of skipping days, slacking off training, etc....

Russell has been acknowledged by Cable thruout 2008 (when Cable was interim HC) that Russell was slacking off. And he STILL had to call him out at 2009 off-season workouts. That again is a worrying sign. Why is he doing this and not throwing himself into his job 100% like Ryan or other rookie QBs out there? Obviously he has more natural talent than them all, but it counts for nothing if one lazes their attitude. You all acknowledge that it's acknowledged about Russell, his slacking off. Cable and the media does too. So everything im saying isnt some big shock. All Im saying is, dont feed him this attitude that he has a free-ride here, that he has a meal-ticket of another 2-3 years. You push it on him, Garcia is a good fire under his ass, and not a bluff....you fail to improve by mid-season to BE that #1 we spent on you, or else we'll bench you and restructure you to minimum salary cos if you fail by mid-season, your NFL value around the league will take a beating....just like how Walter isnt worth more than minimum salary and a 7th rounder. So make or break for you, Russell.

[GenRaider]

yeah, how do you know he hasn't memorized it yet GG or even after 07' or during

Yep.

[GenRaider]

The significance of holdout/contract/playbook....

Ryan accepted a good contract....meaning he rolled his sleeves up, realized the whole franchise depended on him coming in and being the starter, the leader, from the get-go. He got cracking. While Russell didnt at all. He wanted more money, more conditions, didnt accept the responsibility of him being the leader, the starter. He held out for 4 months!! When he finally came, he was overweight again, STILL hadnt memorized the playbook, they needed to burn it on DVD for him to play on his damned 100" flat screen TV, and thru 2007 STILL hadnt learned the playbook when he eventually started in game 14/15/16. And thru 2008, as a starter, he STILL hadnt memorized the playbook. Ryan is acknowledged by his coaches and NFL analysts as having learned the whole playbook by 2-3 months into the regular season. They may not have called every play, been more run-focused here and there to make his journey thru his rookie season easier, but he had it down pat is the point.

The significance of skipping days, slacking off training, etc....

Russell has been acknowledged by Cable thruout 2008 (when Cable was interim HC) that Russell was slacking off. And he STILL had to call him out at 2009 off-season workouts. That again is a worrying sign. Why is he doing this and not throwing himself into his job 100% like Ryan or other rookie QBs out there? Obviously he has more natural talent than them all, but it counts for nothing if one lazes their attitude. You all acknowledge that it's acknowledged about Russell, his slacking off. Cable and the media does too. So everything im saying isnt some big shock. All Im saying is, dont feed him this attitude that he has a free-ride here, that he has a meal-ticket of another 2-3 years. You push it on him, Garcia is a good fire under his ass, and not a bluff....you fail to improve by mid-season to BE that #1 we spent on you, or else we'll bench you and restructure you to minimum salary cos if you fail by mid-season, your NFL value around the league will take a beating....just like how Walter isnt worth more than minimum salary and a 7th rounder. So make or break for you, Russell.

You're taking Cable's comments out of contexts. I don't remember Cable calling JR out -- rather CABLE stating what JR is doing. Hell, I find funny that these people (who created this story to sell papers) never mention the fact that JR has been in Oakland all year long, at the facility. But then again, he was in the facility last year as well.

I don't get the part about JR being called out and the interpretation of him being lazy.

[yayarea_raider]

The significance of holdout/contract/playbook....

When he finally came, he was overweight again, STILL hadnt memorized the playbook, they needed to burn it on DVD for him to play on his damned 100" flat screen TV, and thru 2007 STILL hadnt learned the playbook when he eventually started in game 14/15/16. And thru 2008, as a starter, he STILL hadnt memorized the playbook.

how do you know this GG, and he only started one game in 07' that was in week 17 at home against the chargers, after the horrific first time play in Jacksonville .

[BlackHeart]

I just have to comment and say that its nice to see a good convo with debating on this issue. Brings back memories.....carry on.

[GenRaider]

how do you know this GG, and he only started one game in 07' that was in week 17 at home against the chargers, after the horrific first time play in Jacksonville .

we were down 21-0 in like a minute. Its kinda hard and unfair for anyone to take anything away from the Jags game.

[yayarea_raider]

I think I heard something factual that JaMarcus hadn't memorized the playbook by the end of 07', but nothing else that suggested that he did not have it down by 08'. He looked slim az hell last yr when he showed up for mini-camps actually-I remember the first pics.

I think JaMarcus just adds a few pound over the season, as he looked thicker than he did at the beginning of the season IMO. They should have him at 245-250 opening the season.

[yayarea_raider]

we were down 21-0 in like a minute. Its kinda hard and unfair for anyone to take anything away from the Jags game.

Oh I'm not...just saying he only had one start after getting his first time play in JAC. BTW, I was really impressed in ONE WEEK how JaMarcus went from that bad outing to throwing 2 TD's.

I think this kid is driven. I think his weight is a non-issue as he just plays that way and can still move. I do not think they should ever have him at 265+ though. He looked about 270 when they ended the season IMO, after looking slim to start it.

[-GG-]

Really? Is it a fact that JR never memorized the playbook? Not saying you or right or wrong, but I just need some factual info behind this.

yeah, how do you know he hasn't memorized it yet GG or even after 07' or during

You guys will have to go find the articles or quotes, but it's been stated (by Jerry, Cable, Kiffin, R.Ryan) that Russell hadnt learned the whole playbook by mid-end 2008. By Kiffin when Russell came out of holdout, questioned why he still hadnt learned it. Thru 2007 by Kiffin by saying Russell wasnt ready to start, saying how there's a lot about the huddle, and LOS etc that Russell still needs to learn before he can "give the team the best chance to win." Thru 2008 it was said too. While it's on record too how M.Ryan had by 2-3 months into the regular season.

That act alone (learning a playbook) is a big issue. It's not just that, but also involves in-huddle play-calling, reading coverages at the LOS, audibling, knowing what to audible, the names of the plays, which players to move around, identifying players out of position to the audibled play, hot-reads, identifying blitzes (because that's all another kind of playbook, where for that week and during the game, the coaches have given QB a 'playbook' about what that particular opponent that week is going to run on defense, what kind of things to look for). Which is why they're supposed to study film and put it to practice that week. Some people are just slow learners, or a little lazy, that they sigh, find it all so hard, and daydream or procrastinate in class or at home not doing their homework first but instead playing PS3 or chatting on MSN first.

GEN, you'd know about that being a teacher. How those kids at school are like that too. So, that's the problem with Russell, why he was a risk #1, because of his mental intangibles/attitude, has the talent but questionable work ethic. Walter knows the playbook, btw, far more than Russell did thru 2007 and 2008 under Kiffin/Cable. So did McCown in 2007.

[GenRaider]

You guys will have to go find the articles or quotes, but it's been stated (by Jerry, Cable, Kiffin, R.Ryan) that Russell hadnt learned the whole playbook by mid-end 2008. By Kiffin when Russell came out of holdout, questioned why he still hadnt learned it. Thru 2007 by Kiffin by saying Russell wasnt ready to start, saying how there's a lot about the huddle, and LOS etc that Russell still needs to learn before he can "give the team the best chance to win." Thru 2008 it was said too. While it's on record too how M.Ryan had by 2-3 months into the regular season.

That that act alone (learning a playbook) is a big issue. It's not just that, but also involves in-huddle play-calling, reading coverages at the LOS, audibling, knowing what to audible, the names of the plays, which players to move around, identifying players out of position to the audibled play, hot-reads, identifying blitzes (because that's all another kind of playbook, where for that week and during the game, the coaches have given QB a 'playbook' about what that particular opponent that week is going to run on defense, what kind of things to look for). Which is why they're supposed to study film and put it to practice that week. Some people are just slow learners, or a little lazy, that they sigh, find it all so hard, and daydream or procrastinate in class or at home not doing their homework first but instead playing PS3 or chatting on MSN first.

GEN, you'd know about that being a teacher. How those kids at school are like that too. So, that's the problem with Russell, why he was a risk #1, because of his mental intangibles/attitude, has the talent but questionable work ethic. Walter knows the playbook, btw, far more than Russell did thru 2007 and 2008 under Kiffin/Cable. So did McCown in 2007.

He doesn't have questionable work ethics.

I don't ever recall these guys mentioning that he didn't have the playbook memorized, but I do recall JR stating towards end of his first year that he had the playbook down...

[yayarea_raider]

You guys will have to go find the articles or quotes, but it's been stated (by Jerry, Cable, Kiffin, R.Ryan) that Russell hadnt learned the whole playbook by mid-end 2008. By Kiffin when Russell came out of holdout, questioned why he still hadnt learned it. Thru 2007 by Kiffin by saying Russell wasnt ready to start, saying how there's a lot about the huddle, and LOS etc that Russell still needs to learn before he can "give the team the best chance to win." Thru 2008 it was said too. While it's on record too how M.Ryan had by 2-3 months into the regular season.

That that act alone (learning a playbook) is a big issue. It's not just that, but also involves in-huddle play-calling, reading coverages at the LOS, audibling, knowing what to audible, the names of the plays, which players to move around, identifying players out of position to the audibled play, hot-reads, identifying blitzes (because that's all another kind of playbook, where for that week and during the game, the coaches have given QB a 'playbook' about what that particular opponent that week is going to run on defense, what kind of things to look for). Which is why they're supposed to study film and put it to practice that week. Some people are just slow learners, or a little lazy, that they sigh, find it all so hard, and daydream or procrastinate in class or at home not doing their homework first but instead playing PS3 or chatting on MSN first.

GEN, you'd know about that being a teacher. How those kids at school are like that too. So, that's the problem with Russell, why he was a risk #1, because of his mental intangibles/attitude, has the talent but questionable work ethic. Walter knows the playbook, btw, far more than Russell did thru 2007 and 2008 under Kiffin/Cable. So did McCown in 2007.

Even if that's true, I seriously doubt we are going to question JaMarcus anymore after this year. They hired Paul Hackett to be his QB coach. You can bet your azz that he'll be on JaMarcus to have the playbook down if he already doesn't-and with how Cable has been stating his claim on it I'm sure he's had his eyes on Russell and that playbook is down if not close.

No need to worry IMO. Hackett, Cable and Tollner sound like a good mix of offense. I think Russell cleans up his game tremendously this year.

Seriously, we should all be worried more about this run defense. God plz help T. Sands and G. Warren not get their ass KICKED ON A CONSTANT BASIS if the Raiders so choose AGAIN to have them rotate at NT.

Amen.

[GenRaider]

I think I heard something factual that JaMarcus hadn't memorized the playbook by the end of 07', but nothing else that suggested that he did not have it down by 08'. He looked slim az hell last yr when he showed up for mini-camps actually-I remember the first pics.

I think JaMarcus just adds a few pound over the season, as he looked thicker than he did at the beginning of the season IMO. They should have him at 245-250 opening the season.

The former QB coach use to work out at the gym I go to. According to him, the Raiders wanted JR to play at around 260 which I thought was too heavy. He said the kid had the goods...

[yayarea_raider]

The former QB coach use to work out at the gym I go to. According to him, the Raiders wanted JR to play at around 260 which I thought was too heavy. He said the kid had the goods...

Hackett worked with Montana, developed Gannon and Pennington...and all point to him from their success. :popcorn

did u see my article on that Gen? here it is anyways...http://yayarearaider.blogspot.com/2009/03/oakland-raiders-jamarcus-russell-has.html

btw I think 250 would be better to have him play in

[GenRaider]

If Josh McClown knew the playbook how come the offense didn't show that much? Sorry I just don't much into this theory surrounding understanding the playbook. I just didn't see that many different things.

Only thing I know is JR stating he knew the playbook (according to himself on local bay area tv during late 2007)...

But, as stated, considering he had three different play-callers and was fairly, farily productive during the last six games, I don't get this notion for him not grasping it..

[GenRaider]

Hackett worked with Montana, developed Gannon and Pennington...and all point to him from their success. :popcorn

did u see my article on that Gen? here it is anyways...http://yayarearaider.blogspot.com/2009/03/oakland-raiders-jamarcus-russell-has.html

I read it -- good article.

Gannon has nothing but high praise for Hackett. Hackett is a qb guru... has west coast offense background which is why I think we are looking at Garcia as a backup.

[-GG-]

Btw, to use another QB example.....

Roethlisberger did NOT know the whole playbook either during his first 2 years. Cowher never actually had a playbook as such. Tomlin and Roethlisberger are on record saying that Cowher's office was a mess, never had a playbook, just scraps of paper and filing cabinets with drawn up plays all thrown in and he'd pull them out here and there from week to week. But, Roethlisberger was babied thru his first 2 seasons. Now, tho, under Tomlin, he has a proper playbook and knows it pat.

There would be other QBs, like Drew Stanton and Kevin Kolb who also dont know the whole playbook. Guys like Orlovsky did, Culpepper did, but Stanton didnt (Detroit). Guys like Leinart didnt, but Warner did. Guys like Schaub and Rosenfels did (Houston). T.Jackson didnt, but Frerotte did. Etc. You can see it yourself and you can read the lines in articles that are suggestive of QBs who are struggling, not starting, and why they're not starting.

The reason Kiffin started McCown and not Russell was because Russell still hadnt learned it all, wasnt proficient enough to LEAD/start a pro-offense. While McCown "gives us the best chance to win" because he knows the playbook, can get players in the right positions, audible, move players around, etc. Russell was getting there during 2008, but he only started getting there mid-late 2008. You can see it at every LOS, Russell starting to audible more, being a general, moving players around etc.

[yayarea_raider]

The reason Kiffin started McCown and not Russell was because Russell still hadnt learned it all, wasnt proficient enough to LEAD/start a pro-offense. While McCown "gives us the best chance to win" because he knows the playbook, can get players in the right positions, audible, move players around, etc.

Russell held out so he coudl not get all the reps McCown was. A lot think he might have even beaten him out if he didn't hold out.

[raidersforlife]

What Kiffin said or thought means nothing. Kiffin never wanted Russell and absolutely hated him. He almost ruined Russell for good.

[-GG-]

The reason Hackett is there is to instill in Russell this mastering of a playbook, of a system, because to take that leap from potential to proven player a QB has to master a playbook.....before you can shine as a QB you need to be totally comfortable with it, the terminology, everything, THEN it becomes like second-nature, like habit, you're not still trying to grasp offensive concepts and names etc.

Hackett is there in order to take Russell to that level. So if he's not improving by mid-year, what does that say? That Hackett is a hack? No, that Russell's attitude or learning ability is not moving up to speed to be elite at the NFL level.

If Russell IS improving by mid-year, that's because Hackett has finally gotten into his head and Russell has started to master it.

That's all im saying...by mid-year we'll ALL know where Russell stands...why it's make or break for him in the NFL.

[yayarea_raider]

I read it -- good article.

Gannon has nothing but high praise for Hackett. Hackett is a qb guru... has west coast offense background which is why I think we are looking at Garcia as a backup.

thanks...that comp. percentage is going to go WAAAAAAAAAAAAY up for JaMarcus. Garcia will be the perfect backup to have if he goes down...hell if he signs we'll have someone to help develop the younger receivers in pre-season-

Never thought of that...

[yayarea_raider]

The reason Hackett is there is to instill in Russell this mastering of a playbook, of a system, because to take that leap from potential to proven player a QB has to master a playbook.....before you can shine as a QB you need to be totally comfortable with it, the terminology, everything, THEN it becomes like second-nature, like habit, you're not still trying to grasp offensive concepts and names etc.

Hackett is there in order to take Russell to that level. So if he's not improving by mid-year, what does that say? That Hackett is a hack? No, that Russell's attitude or learning ability is not moving up to speed to be elite at the NFL level.

If Russell IS improving by mid-year, that's because Hackett has finally gotten into his head and Russell has started to master it.

That's all im saying...by mid-year we'll ALL know where Russell stands...why it's make or break for him in the NFL.

I think I know where Russell stand now. I knew it once Harris was benched. That was THEE main problem with his progression last year.

[GenRaider]

Btw, to use another QB example.....

Roethlisberger did NOT know the whole playbook either during his first 2 years. Cowher never actually had a playbook as such. Tomlin and Roethlisberger are on record saying that Cowher's office was a mess, never had a playbook, just scraps of paper and filing cabinets with drawn up plays all thrown in and he'd pull them out here and there from week to week. But, Roethlisberger was babied thru his first 2 seasons. Now, tho, under Tomlin, he has a proper playbook and knows it pat.

There would be other QBs, like Drew Stanton and Kevin Kolb who also dont know the whole playbook. Guys like Orlovsky did, Culpepper did, but Stanton didnt (Detroit). Guys like Leinart didnt, but Warner did. Guys like Schaub and Rosenfels did (Houston). T.Jackson didnt, but Frerotte did. Etc. You can see it yourself and you can read the lines in articles that are suggestive of QBs who are struggling, not starting, and why they're not starting.

The reason Kiffin started McCown and not Russell was because Russell still hadnt learned it all, wasnt proficient enough to LEAD/start a pro-offense. While McCown "gives us the best chance to win" because he knows the playbook, can get players in the right positions, audible, move players around, etc. Russell was getting there during 2008, but he only started getting there mid-late 2008. You can see it at every LOS, Russell starting to audible more, being a general, moving players around etc.

Did JR audible more during mid-season? Yeah. Also, he started to checkdown and throw the ball to his backs and tight ends, rather than forcing it in a tight areas.. Still, I don't make much of this other than, him learning with experience.

[GenRaider]

I think I know where Russell stand now. I knew it once Harris was benched. That was THEE main problem with his progression last year.

that and Cornell Green and not having any damn receivers. Our O actually got better once Cable took over the play-calling duties. Greg Knapp was really bad.

[yayarea_raider]

What Kiffin said or thought means nothing. Kiffin never wanted Russell and absolutely hated him. He almost ruined Russell for good.

I don't buy that, no matter how much Russell was being eased into the game by Kiffin, it was the right approach...we are a running team. AND with Harris as thier starting LT they had obvious problems.

Although it may be true he wanted Quinn and never Russell, why ruin someone's career over it? I think he wanted him to succeed just as much as everyone else. I think he was just easing him into it, that's all.

Sure Kiffin could have let him loose a little more, or even started him a game or two earlier-but he was just doing what he thought best for JaMarcus. Whether that was right or wrong is arguable-but it's all in the past.

I really don't buy that notion that he wanted JaMarcus to fail though. It's just that his skill set isn't really for the WCO. JaMarcus is more of a drop back passer IMO.

[raidersforlife]

I think I know where Russell stand now. I knew it once Harris was benched. That was THEE main problem with his progression last year.

Followed by some receivers who don't belong in the NFL.

[GenRaider]

Btw, to use another QB example.....

Roethlisberger did NOT know the whole playbook either during his first 2 years. Cowher never actually had a playbook as such. Tomlin and Roethlisberger are on record saying that Cowher's office was a mess, never had a playbook, just scraps of paper and filing cabinets with drawn up plays all thrown in and he'd pull them out here and there from week to week. But, Roethlisberger was babied thru his first 2 seasons. Now, tho, under Tomlin, he has a proper playbook and knows it pat.

There would be other QBs, like Drew Stanton and Kevin Kolb who also dont know the whole playbook. Guys like Orlovsky did, Culpepper did, but Stanton didnt (Detroit). Guys like Leinart didnt, but Warner did. Guys like Schaub and Rosenfels did (Houston). T.Jackson didnt, but Frerotte did. Etc. You can see it yourself and you can read the lines in articles that are suggestive of QBs who are struggling, not starting, and why they're not starting.

The reason Kiffin started McCown and not Russell was because Russell still hadnt learned it all, wasnt proficient enough to LEAD/start a pro-offense. While McCown "gives us the best chance to win" because he knows the playbook, can get players in the right positions, audible, move players around, etc. Russell was getting there during 2008, but he only started getting there mid-late 2008. You can see it at every LOS, Russell starting to audible more, being a general, moving players around etc.

ROTH was a free lancer his first couple of years. I think their O was much more than just scrap of papers. But I GET YOUR POINT.

[-GG-]

Russell held out so he coudl not get all the reps McCown was. A lot think he might have even beaten him out if he didn't hold out.

That's why McCown sucks as a QB. He masters a playbook but his ability is limited. He just sucks. Is more of a stop-gap measure, someone to manage a game. Why Pennington was a great thing for Miami, because Henne still learning the playbook, hasnt mastered it, and Parcell's can depend on Pennington who has far more ability than McCown while also can master a playbook just like McCown. So Henne doesnt start whilever he's not up to speed/par with Pennington on a playbook/huddle/film-defense sense. When he is, he will start because he has more ability than Pennington.

Why Joey Harrington is a career back-up, because he has no ability like McCown, tho he CAN master a playbook. Why Walter is still and probably will always be a career back-up, because he hasnt the ability to rise to the 'next level'. Why VInce Young is a bust (why Russell has to work harder to avoid heading down the same road), and why guys like Testerverde and Collins and Culpepper still get jobs because they can master playbooks very quickly and still have enough ability to prosper. Why Brunell did for a long time during his mid-30's but is now not a good starter, because his physical ability sucks now.

Why Jason Campbell is not being offered an extension, because he has limited ability tho he can master a playbook.

[GenRaider]

That's why McCown sucks as a QB. He masters a playbook but his ability is limited. He just sucks. Is more of a stop-gap measure, someone to manage a game. Why Pennington was a great thing for Miami, because Henne still learning the playbook, hasnt mastered it, and Parcell's can depend on Pennington who has far more ability than McCown while also can master a playbook just like McCown. So Henne doesnt start whilever he's not up to speed/par with Pennington on a playbook/huddle/film-defense sense. When he is, he will start because he has more ability than Pennington.

Why Joey Harrington is a career back-up, because he has no ability like McCown, tho he CAN master a playbook. Why Walter is still and probably will always be a career back-up, because he hasnt the ability to rise to the 'next level'. Why VInce Young is a bust (why Russell has to work harder to avoid heading down the same road), and why guys like Testerverde and Collins and Culpepper still get jobs because they can master playbooks very quickly and still have enough ability to prosper. Why Brunell did for a long time during his mid-30's but is now not a good starter, because his physical ability sucks now.

Why Jason Campbell is not being offered an extension, because he has limited ability tho he can master a playbook.

Texas had to run a very, very basic O for Vince Young..

[yayarea_raider]

that and Cornell Green and not having any damn receivers. Our O actually got better once Cable took over the play-calling duties. Greg Knapp was really bad.

Yeah I think we'll have a new starter at RT this year. Green really gets beat up by speed rushers. The O did get better once Cable took over but he tried to do too much at once.

I like his play-calling though and him having Tollner and Hackett to help with the gameplan ought to make him sleep better at night. Not to mention that OL hire will free him up a bit more

[GenRaider]

I don't buy that, no matter how much Russell was being eased into the game by Kiffin, it was the right approach...we are a running team. AND with Harris as thier starting LT they had obvious problems.

Although it may be true he wanted Quinn and never Russell, why ruin someone's career over it? I think he wanted him to succeed just as much as everyone else. I think he was just easing him into it, that's all.

Sure Kiffin could have let him loose a little more, or even started him a game or two earlier-but he was just doing what he thought best for JaMarcus. Whether that was right or wrong is arguable-but it's all in the past.

I really don't buy that notion that he wanted JaMarcus to fail though. It's just that his skill set isn't really for the WCO. JaMarcus is more of a drop back passer IMO.

Well in the true WCO you are throwing the ball all over the place - including down the field. He just needs to learn (which he started to get) that he has to checkdown to the running back once in a while rather than looking for the big play, the 7 route, the fly, the stop and go...

But we are a heavy base run-team which is why I didn't understand why we got away from that during the first several weeks of the season. Our history, for the longest has always been predicated with the run...

[GenRaider]

Yeah I think we'll have a new starter at RT this year. Green really gets beat up by speed rushers. The O did get better once Cable took over but he tried to do too much at once.

I like his play-calling though and him having Tollner and Hackett to help with the gameplan ought to make him sleep better at night. Not to mention that OL hire will free him up a bit more

I saw how bad Green and Harris were during the SD game. They were problematic which close the pocket. Add to fact that Curry and Walker were terrible route runners.... you have a problem.

[-GG-]

Did JR audible more during mid-season? Yeah. Also, he started to checkdown and throw the ball to his backs and tight ends, rather than forcing it in a tight areas.. Still, I don't make much of this other than, him learning with experience.

The reason is because he started to master the playbook, being comfortable with it. That's what "experience" means.....it's not just playing but also the mental recognition of playbooks, formations, reading coverage. It's a combination of the two and the raw actual playing part always stems originally from mastering playbooks, being comfortable in a system first, like second-nature. That's why im not wrong.....Russell only started to master/know the playbook by mid-late 2008. So really, from here on, if he's not stepping up to the next level under Hackett's tutelage then it's on Russell and it means he's not up to NFL franchise QB starter caliber.

It's why, for instance, Leinart came in as starter, but eventually lost his place, replaced by someone more capable. If Leinart isnt diligent he can end up a bust as well. For him to take that next level he has the same challenge as Russell has. The difference is Todd Haley is a task-master and pass-happy OC, and just couldnt trust Leinart, his level was not up to Warner's standards, they wanted to win, not wait around 4 years for him. And they STILL brought Warner back because Leinart hasnt gotten there still----his mental ability, digesting what he sees on the field and quickly finding the right passes the right audibles the right touch. Putting INTO practice what the brain knows.

[yayarea_raider]

I saw how bad Green and Harris were during the SD game. They were problematic which close the pocket. Add to fact that Curry and Walker were terrible route runners.... you have a problem.

Curry dropped way too many passes last yr...

[-GG-]

Sorry for the repeat points....i was trying to catch-up to the posts being posted, but everyone knows what i mean now, so apologies for the repetitions.

So that's all im stressing, make or break year for Russell, Hackett is a great thing for him, no excuses, we'll know more about where he's at by mid-year. I just dont approve of the stance to give Russell this sense of a free-ride with "2 more years". He needs to step up to the plate now. And Garcia therefore is a good insurance policy for the interim IF IF Russell busts during 2009. If he doesnt, great! If he does, i wouldnt be surprised to see the Raiders look elsewhere for a QB. Not a rookie, but a seasoned back-up somewhere that Davis feels could be a starter....like Gannon and Plunkett were.

[GenRaider]

The reason is because he started to master the playbook, being comfortable with it. That's what "experience" means.....it's not just playing but also the mental recognition of playbooks, formations, reading coverage. It's a combination of the two and the raw actual playing part always stems originally from mastering playbooks, being comfortable in a system first, like second-nature. That's why im not wrong.....Russell only started to master/know the playbook by mid-late 2008. So really, from here on, if he's not stepping up to the next level under Hackett's tutelage then it's on Russell and it means he's not up to NFL franchise QB starter caliber.

It's why, for instance, Leinart came in as starter, but eventually lost his place, replaced by someone more capable. If Leinart isnt diligent he can end up a bust as well. For him to take that next level he has the same challenge as Russell has. The difference is Todd Haley is a task-master and pass-happy OC, and just couldnt trust Leinart, his level was not up to Warner's standards, they wanted to win, not wait around 4 years for him. And they STILL brought Warner back because Leinart hasnt gotten there still----his mental ability, digesting what he sees on the field and quickly finding the right passes the right audibles the right touch. Putting INTO practice what the brain knows.

Experience is different from mastering a play-book my friend. Experience has more to do with understand what you can and cannot get away with... Thus, you start to audbile into plays which you feel work best. Hence, our O became far more productive during the last six weeks of the season for obvious reason.

Leinart was never that good to speak of, my friend. In fact, he isn't a first round talent. He got drafted base on being apart of one of the greatest offense in college football. But still, you or I could of been productive behind that line. The Norm Chow O is proven. And it doesn't hurt to have had two first round talent running backs and playing in a soft conference.

Leinart has severe limitations as a player. He cannot throw a 15 yard out which is why he isn't playing. Also, he cannot execute the shallow route. Warner, however was the play-caller on the field. He pretty much ran the O much in the same way Jim Kelly called his own plays for Buffalo during the 90s....

[raidersforlife]

I don't buy that, no matter how much Russell was being eased into the game by Kiffin, it was the right approach...we are a running team. AND with Harris as thier starting LT they had obvious problems.

Although it may be true he wanted Quinn and never Russell, why ruin someone's career over it? I think he wanted him to succeed just as much as everyone else. I think he was just easing him into it, that's all.

Sure Kiffin could have let him loose a little more, or even started him a game or two earlier-but he was just doing what he thought best for JaMarcus. Whether that was right or wrong is arguable-but it's all in the past.

I really don't buy that notion that he wanted JaMarcus to fail though. It's just that his skill set isn't really for the WCO. JaMarcus is more of a drop back passer IMO.

Kiffin was trying to prove he was right to Al. He didn't want to be the head coach of the Raiders and didn't believe in the players or organization anyways. He had nothing to lose because he was going to get out of here anyways. He had something to gain if Russell fails because he could say "I never wanted him in the first place" and "I was right, Al was wrong".

He told Russell to avoid running at all costs for example, remember how everyone was criticizing him for not running even when the field was wide open in front of him, that was Kiffin instilling that crap in his head (JMac posted it on one of his blogs).

Russell was being eased in because Kiffin thought he was stupid and incapable.

Even in one of the interviews Kiffin said "I don't think we will ever see him reach his full potential" or some shit like that. He always thought Russell was overrated by all the scouts and personnel.

[GenRaider]

Kiffin was trying to prove he was right to Al. He didn't want to be the head coach of the Raiders and didn't believe in the players or organization anyways. He had nothing to lose because he was going to get out of here anyways. He had something to gain if Russell fails because he could say "I never wanted him in the first place" and "I was right, Al was wrong".

He told Russell to avoid running at all costs for example, remember how everyone was criticizing him for not running even when the field was wide open in front of him, that was Kiffin instilling that crap in his head (JMac posted it on one of his blogs).

Russell was being eased in because Kiffin thought he was stupid and incapable.

Even in one of the interviews Kiffin said "I don't think we will ever see him reach his full potential" or some shit like that. He always thought Russell was overrated by all the scouts and personnel.

Kiffin was never a top evaluator in terms of quarterbacks -- he is good with running backs, though.

This is the same guy that wanted Trent Edwards and Calvin Johnson in the first two rounds of the draft.

[BlackHeart]

One game I knew was going to be a huge problem for fans was that Falcons game. I remember I told Buck "Watch fans start turning on Russell after this Falcons game".
And thats exactly when alot of fans started to have doubts because Matt Ryan was lights out and Russell played like crap that game but the whole team did.


I'll be lying if I said that game didn't hurt cause you ask yourself "Is it any hope for us" ? and stuff like that. But the Raiders might lead the league in question marks when it comes to them.

[raidersforlife]

One game I knew was going to be a huge problem for fans was that Falcons game. I remember I told Buck "Watch fans start turning on Russell after this Falcons game".
And thats exactly when alot of fans started to have doubts because Matt Ryan was lights out and Russell played like crap that game but the whole team did.


I'll be lying if I said that game didn't hurt cause you ask yourself "Is it any hope for us" ? and stuff like that. But the Raiders might lead the league in question marks when it comes to them.

Russell really did struggle, but in all my years of watching Raider football I had never seen an offensive line play as bad as they did that game. It even was worse than anything in 06 imo.

[GenRaider]

Russell really did struggle, but in all my years of watching Raider football I had never seen an offensive line play as bad as they did that game. It even was worse than anything in 06 imo.

John Abraham was unblockable that game. But, as previous mentioned, i'm not sure why Knapp got away from the run. Knapp lost his play-calling duties right after that game.

[-GG-]

GEN...

Putting into practice what the brain knows and is comfortable with like second-nature is when experience starts to make headway in a player's career. If one is still struggling to master playbooks and reading coverages etc, then they still physically feel lost on the field, still learning the ropes, poking their toes in the water without that sense of confidence with their decision-making.

[raidersforlife]

John Abraham was unblockable that game. But, as previous mentioned, i'm not sure why Knapp got away from the run. Knapp lost his play-calling duties right after that game.

Yeah, and DeAngelo was released too, which has turned out to be a great move. You never know, as they say things happen for a reason.

[GenRaider]

GEN...

Putting into practice what the brain knows and is comfortable with like second-nature is when experience starts to make headway in a player's career. If one is still struggling to master playbooks and reading coverages etc, then they still physically feel lost on the field, still learning the ropes, poking their toes in the water without that sense of confidence with their decision-making.

I can see you and I are not going to agree on this :laughing.

I'm just one who believes in that experience and learning from experience translates into better play, depending on the player.

I don't think he struggle with coverages...

[GenRaider]

Yeah, and DeAngelo was released too, which has turned out to be a great move. You never know, as they say things happen for a reason.

Hall was a zone corner... didn't mesh in a system which requires guys to play more bump and run.

[-GG-]

Kiffin was never a top evaluator in terms of quarterbacks -- he is good with running backs, though.

This is the same guy that wanted Trent Edwards and Calvin Johnson in the first two rounds of the draft.

One of Kiffin's recruitment mistakes was saying Jones-Drew was too small to play NFL (when he was a scout at Jacksonville). Or maybe when he was a scout at USC.

[raidersforlife]

GEN...

Putting into practice what the brain knows and is comfortable with like second-nature is when experience starts to make headway in a player's career. If one is still struggling to master playbooks and reading coverages etc, then they still physically feel lost on the field, still learning the ropes, poking their toes in the water without that sense of confidence with their decision-making.

You don't think his decision making was good this year? I thought he did pretty well in that category? Accuracy was the big issue and all of a sudden when he started getting some time and had receivers that belonged in the NFL, that took a big step forward too.

[GenRaider]

One of Kiffin's recruitment mistakes was saying Jones-Drew was too small to play NFL (when he was a scout at Jacksonville). Or maybe when he was a scout at USC.

Probably USC. He was the defensive quality coach with the JAGS. I was never that found of him as an evaluator of talent...

[-GG-]

I can see you and I are not going to agree on this :laughing.

I'm just one who believes in that experience and learning from experience translates into better play, depending on the player.

I don't think he struggle with coverages...

It's cool to disagree. Just know I always respect the opinions of others. Why I debate with people!

But on coverages.....the very worst throw ive ever seen in the NFL ever in my life was the game against Chargers when Russell threw the ball into QUADRUPLE coverage. Not double, quadruple, and was picked off. Schilens was surrounded by FOUR players totally, and Russell still flung it there. He has a long way to go still, one shouldnt be blase about him just rising. He has work to do.

[raidersforlife]

It's cool to disagree. Just know I always respect the opinions of others. Why I debate with people!

But on coverages.....the very worst throw ive ever seen in the NFL ever in my life was the game against Chargers when Russell threw the ball into QUADRUPLE coverage. Not double, quadruple, and was picked off. Schilens was surrounded by FOUR players totally, and Russell still flung it there. He has a long way to go still, one shouldnt be blase about him just rising. He has work to do.

Do you mean the INT? The one where he was hit while throwing the ball because Cornell Green was completely knocked over?

[GenRaider]

You don't think his decision making was good this year? I thought he did pretty well in that category? Accuracy was the big issue and all of a sudden when he started getting some time and had receivers that belonged in the NFL, that took a big step forward too.

We wasted an entire month of football (Sept) by making JR a hand-off specialist. 3 passes in the second half aganist Buffalo. What the hell was up with that.

I think his decision as a qb got better with time. Even with that said, I think he threw a grand total of 8 picks last season.

[-GG-]

You don't think his decision making was good this year? I thought he did pretty well in that category? Accuracy was the big issue and all of a sudden when he started getting some time and had receivers that belonged in the NFL, that took a big step forward too.

Well, dont take my words as meaning Im trashing him totally. More that he's too up and down thru 2008. Only towards the last few games he started to show some consistency. This is a good sign. But still means he has work to do. Why we'll see by mid-year where he stands. Consistency is the big thing.

[GenRaider]

It's cool to disagree. Just know I always respect the opinions of others. Why I debate with people!

But on coverages.....the very worst throw ive ever seen in the NFL ever in my life was the game against Chargers when Russell threw the ball into QUADRUPLE coverage. Not double, quadruple, and was picked off. Schilens was surrounded by FOUR players totally, and Russell still flung it there. He has a long way to go still, one shouldnt be blase about him just rising. He has work to do.

I was there. I saw that play. He should of just checkdown. Not sure if the throw happen based on him being hit early or him forcing it.

[-GG-]

Do you mean the INT? The one where he was hit while throwing the ball because Cornell Green was completely knocked over?

No he wasnt hit, he was hurried yes, but it ended up where it did due to poor decision-making and vision. It's a mistake, that inconsistency I was talking about. Locking on as a fall-back during a panic situation. Just we'll better evaluate Russell by mid-year....dont you agree with that?

[GenRaider]

Well, dont take my words as meaning Im trashing him totally. More that he's too up and down thru 2008. Only towards the last few games he started to show some consistency. This is a good sign. But still means he has work to do. Why we'll see by mid-year where he stands. Consistency is the big thing.

Fundamentally he has to wok on some things. Biggest thing is he has to understand that he cannot force throws...

[GenRaider]

I prefer to do a seasonal evaluation rather than by mid-year, but I get your point.

[raidersforlife]

No he wasnt hit, he was hurried yes, but it ended up where it did due to poor decision-making and vision. It's a mistake, that inconsistency I was talking about. Locking on as a fall-back during a panic situation. Just we'll better evaluate Russell by mid-year....dont you agree with that?

True, we will see this year. I think he will be great.
I think I know what throw you are mentioning, it was around the 2 minute mark, but wasn't intended for Schilens.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0b907

I thought you were referring to this play where Green got knocked over:
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0c6f2

[-GG-]

Tops 1 year for many here. And mid-year for me. But surely we cant say "you have 2 years to fart ass around, taking your time". Sends a bad message, he needs to cherish where he is right now in life, not to take it all for granted, meal-ticket etc. Garcia coming would be a great thing....for Russell but also for the Raiders should Russell bust because Garcia is more than capable to carry the team the whole year (if need be) and bring W's if we're still in the playoff hunt....if Russell is bust or injured.

Like everyone, Im rooting for Russell. Just cant be given extended time to dawdle thru the NFL at the Raiders expense.

[-GG-]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0b907


Yep that's the one, 1:26 into the video. And I was wrong, he wasnt even hurried, he had the line hold for ages for him. And later he does the same thing, with time and makes the wrong throw. And them saying in other throws how he locks on and needs to look off the safeties.

Also if you see the front on view of the Miller pass, the one he catches, you can see Russell locked on the whole time, from snap all the way thru Miller's route.

That's week 14. He still has a ways to go.

[BlackHeart]

Hey raidersforlife, Did you used to be Raiderfan1987 ?

[GenRaider]

Yep that's the one, 1:26 into the video. And I was wrong, he wasnt even hurried, he had the line hold for ages for him. And later he does the same thing, with time and makes the wrong throw. And them saying in other throws how he locks on and needs to look off the safeties.

Also if you see the front on view of the Miller pass, the one he catches, you can see Russell locked on the whole time, from snap all the way thru Miller's route.

That's week 14. He still has a ways to go.

Considering that Miller was our best wideout, I would be looking for him as well since nobody else could get separation.

[BigPrimo]

Well it looks like Jruss wont have any excuses after we get us a WR. Because we now have talent on offense and i trust in Cable to make our O-line better. What ever his problems are and he does have some he needs to get over them and fast if he wants to remain in the NFL.

[BigPrimo]

True, we will see this year. I think he will be great.
I think I know what throw you are mentioning, it was around the 2 minute mark, but wasn't intended for Schilens.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0b907

I thought you were referring to this play where Green got knocked over:
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0c6f2

Im starting to think that McFadden is the best tackler on the team!!!

[Doyers y Esleigher]

Probably USC. He was the defensive quality coach with the JAGS. I was never that found of him as an evaluator of talent...

I think Kiffin was the best talent evaluator we'd had in years (despite having some who could evaluate current players, our rookie evaluation has been pretty bad). Kiffin took Higgins, Miller, Henderson, O'Neal, and Bush in one draft (and a thin draft at that). As unproven as some of those guys are, they are still going to be starters this season, and each of them has outperformed their free agent team mates by a long shot. For the first time since I can remember, the Raiders are run by drafted talent. Look at the picks in years past and tell me Kiffin isn't at least above the rank he's currently in.

[GenRaider]

I think Kiffin was the best talent evaluator we'd had in years (despite having some who could evaluate current players, our rookie evaluation has been pretty bad). Kiffin took Higgins, Miller, Henderson, O'Neal, and Bush in one draft (and a thin draft at that). As unproven as some of those guys are, they are still going to be starters this season, and each of them has outperformed their free agent team mates by a long shot. For the first time since I can remember, the Raiders are run by drafted talent. Look at the picks in years past and tell me Kiffin isn't at least above the rank he's currently in.

Kiffin did not want Henderson and Higgins -- these are known facts.

[Padrino]

Garcia fkd us over a few seasons ago when he had a last minute change of heart and signed with Tampa. I'm not so thrilled with this even though he's probably the best available back-up out there...

[-GG-]

This is one good reason why Garcia is a great thing...

The Santa Rosa Press Democrat reports that the Raiders are likely to sign free agent Jeff Garcia, perhaps by as soon as Monday.
"They've got their quarterback (JaMarcus Russell), but he'll bring something to that team in terms of attitude, working, being on top of things," a source told the newspaper. The Raiders have been concerned with Russell's work ethic and are likely hoping that Garcia will rub off on him. Garcia is not expected to compete for Oakland's starting job.

And as a vet backup, Garcia > Walter > Gradkowski. Dependable plan B, and even plan A if it came to that.

[or24]

Here's the question. Will Russell learn anymore through game experience as opposed to sitting on the sideline? I think so. Therefore, starting Garcia is not the answer. It just slows down the rebuilding process. Garcia will not push us over the edge to make a playoff run. But I think he could make us a respectable 7 or 8 win team. Is that worth it for a year or 2? Not imo.

However, I dont think Jeff would take this job if he doesnt have a shot at cracking the lineup.

[-GG-]

He might have a shot at starting because Russell imo is on no guarantees. He has to earn his right to MAINTAIN his starting job thru the whole season. If he's faltering by mid-year, not taking the next step, why should he be guaranteed to keep the job thru the rest of the season? There's a chance if he doesnt pull his socks up that he could fizzle out of chances at the Raiders.

The thing is, we're all hopeful, etc etc, but people seem to assume that he's 'just going to take the next step' just cos. But are not genuinely taking into account that he COULD bust. Why couldnt he? Is it impossible? You can never say never and the Raiders need an insurance policy at QB "just in case".

[or24]

Im starting to think that McFadden is the best tackler on the team!!!
LOL ive said that before myself.

[Skern]

It's official he has been signed

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/04/06/back-to-the-bay-garcia-signs-with-raiders/

[Boom]

The reason Hackett is there is to instill in Russell this mastering of a playbook, of a system, because to take that leap from potential to proven player a QB has to master a playbook.....before you can shine as a QB you need to be totally comfortable with it, the terminology, everything, THEN it becomes like second-nature, like habit, you're not still trying to grasp offensive concepts and names etc.

Hackett is there in order to take Russell to that level. So if he's not improving by mid-year, what does that say? That Hackett is a hack? No, that Russell's attitude or learning ability is not moving up to speed to be elite at the NFL level.

If Russell IS improving by mid-year, that's because Hackett has finally gotten into his head and Russell has started to master it.

That's all im saying...by mid-year we'll ALL know where Russell stands...why it's make or break for him in the NFL.

Everything plays a toll to Russells' advancement. It could very well be the offensive line like it has been during the 2008 season, it could be wide recievers not getting open, not running the right routes, not catching the ball. I will reserve my judgement until I see what will transpire in the 2009 season. All I know is that I will be judging Russell based on the offensive unit as a whole and not as an individual.

[Boom]

Did JR audible more during mid-season? Yeah. Also, he started to checkdown and throw the ball to his backs and tight ends, rather than forcing it in a tight areas.. Still, I don't make much of this other than, him learning with experience.

Exactly!!

[Boom]

Tops 1 year for many here. And mid-year for me. But surely we cant say "you have 2 years to fart ass around, taking your time". Sends a bad message, he needs to cherish where he is right now in life, not to take it all for granted, meal-ticket etc. Garcia coming would be a great thing....for Russell but also for the Raiders should Russell bust because Garcia is more than capable to carry the team the whole year (if need be) and bring W's if we're still in the playoff hunt....if Russell is bust or injured.

Like everyone, Im rooting for Russell. Just cant be given extended time to dawdle thru the NFL at the Raiders expense.

So your point is you give a rookie QB a year and a half to see if he is boom or bust? LOL That's a real joke.

[JRaider17]

Time to step up Russell!

[Tooz72]

If Jamarcus don't step up there's a MexiCAN in the waiting.....

[Boom]

If Jamarcus don't step up there's a MexiCAN in the waiting.....

LOL and a Mexican will get it done too.. Fu*king George Lopez "I'm Mexican not Mexican't" LMAO!!

[Don]

If Jamarcus don't step up there's a MexiCAN in the waiting.....

Jeff's more of a Mexican/Redheaded stepchild morph

[Chaps]

Russell better step up this season for real if he wants to lead this team cause for sure Garcia is gonna push his ass for that starting spot

[CowboysFan951]

You really think that Al will let Garcia play over Russell even if he is not hurt??

[Boom]

You really think that Al will let Garcia play over Russell even if he is not hurt??

Nope