Just a Little Comparison

[Miklo]

The main knocks I hear on Michael Crabtree are his speed, his size, and his coming from a specific offense/not playing against top-flight defenses. Well, a lot of these things bring to mind a certain WR I'd like to compare him to.

This isn't to say that they are going to be the same type of WR, or even that Crabtree is gonna have the same level of success; rather, I just want to show that a lot of these things aren't as big of a deal as people make them out to be.

The person who I'm going to compare Crabtree to is considered a top-10 WR in the NFL, maybe even higher.

Reggie Wayne

6'0, 200 lbs.
4 year player at Miami.
Set freshman school record in receptions.
Went on to set school record in career receptions.
One of 3 Miami WR's to get 20+ TD's, joining Michael Irvin and Lamar Thomas.

40-yard dash time: 4.55

Some snippets from different scouting reports I have read on him:

He is a serious threat after the catch because of elusiveness, vision, balance and change of direction skills.

While not the fastest of receiver, he does possess good after-the-catch speed and will show some explosiveness getting in and out of his routes.

He is not afraid to outmuscle you and hit back if a corner decides to press at the line. Wayne’s big advantage is that he knows how to use his frame to get separation and block-out defenders. Corners must be careful not to give him too much cushion, because he will run a quick slant or curl on them, and then use that frame to shield the defender from the ball and make the catch. He also does a nice job of catching the ball when thrown away from his body.

Positives: Adequate-plus size. Top athlete. Has very good balance, exceptional body control and excellent timing. Natural receiver. Does an excellent job of tracking and adjusting to the ball and has soft, natural hands. Can pluck the ball and has the courage to catch over the middle in a crowd. Good route-runner with a nice feel for the passing game. Has some run after the catch and will fight for yardage if he needs it.

Negatives: Is not a true burner or a real home-run hitter. At times will struggle to separate from the defender. Is not a return man or the threat Santana Moss is after the catch.

There were also questions about the DB's he faced in college and how his game would translate to the NFL.

He was picked 30th overall in the 2001 NFL Draft. Santana Moss was selected 16th, because of his speed (YAC) and return game abilities. Nobody would argue, though, that Reggie Wayne was the far better pass catcher.

So, my point with all this is, that straight-line speed and height are not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Crabtree is 6'1, 214 lbs, and would likely run a similar 40 to Wayne's.

Crabtree is also very physical, and not afraid to outmuscle his corner. He can also go across the middle and catch the ball in traffic.

He isn't the fastest receiver either, but he also possesses good after-catch speed, and often beat corners to the endzone after making a catch.

One of the biggest pluses of his game is his deceptiveness. He has very fluid hips, one of the most overlooked, yet important, aspects of a WR's game (if they are to be more than a one-dimensional burner).

Crabtree has great, soft hands, and does an excellent job of both catching the ball away from his body and shielding his defender from the ball.

One thing that I've seen mentioned a lot more lately is that, although Crabtree isn't the tallest receiver, he has unnaturally large arms for his size. Crabtree (6'1) has arms that are an inch longer than Megatron himself, Calvin Johnson's (he is 6'5). If anyone has any qualms about Crabtree's ability to go up and fight for the jump balls because of his size, that should really negate it. He also attacks the ball at its highest point, not allowing his defenders to make a play on it.

The last thing is his route running. Take it from coach Mike Leach: "He has a great sense of space." For the context of that quote, read this article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3531059

The bottom line, Crabtree is a gamer, and you don't become a 2-time Biletnikoff award winner on accident. If he lasts to pick number 7, I think we have to take him.

So my point is that a lot of the negatives people point out about Crabtree's game

[raidersforlife]

Crabtree is by far more explosive than Wayne.

[Miklo]

Crabtree is by far more explosive than Wayne.

My point exactly.

[Tió Nook Nook]

good comparison..i'll def be happy if crabtree is there when the raiders pick at 7

[Don]

Good comp. I don't buy that Crabtree is a product of the offense from which he came. He made a lot of catches in traffic, and like you said, away from his body, and still racked up the YAC. Reggie Wayne plays way taller than 6'0". damn.

The only glaring diff. is that Wayne had four years to develop to Crabs' 2. Wonder how much Crabs works off the field to keep himself in shape or if he just relies on natural ability.. 43 TDs in two years is just doo doo dumb with it, though, dont see how you can argue that he will make the nfl transition OK

[Sonny Cheeba]

I really like to compare Crabtree to the 2nd best player on the Raiders roster, Zachary Miller. He had a sub-par combine, didn't wow the scouts with his 40 time, etc. But ya know what.....he runs great routes, has amazing hands, makes the tough catch, he was just made to play football. Those are the EXACT same traits that Mike C. has.

Just watch the guy play and you'll be convinced, the tape doesn't lie. One of the more underrated qualities of a WR is using your body to shield the defender from the ball, and Crabtree looks like Mike Irvin circa 1993 when he's doing it.

Honestly I really don't even think he will be there when we pick....but if he is, we absolutely have to take him. We've got our new Tim Brown.

[Don]

In the Maclin/ Crabtree comparrison, didn't Cable say that one's faster, but one's better?

[Sonny Cheeba]

In the Maclin/ Crabtree comparrison, didn't Cable say that one's faster, but one's better?
I don't recall anything from Cable like that......but it's definitley true.

[Don]

I don't recall anything from Cable like that......but it's definitley true.

Went back and checked. It was the "More Cable at Cal proday" blog from jerry mac. And I misread. It was an NFL exec who is close to Davis that said it...Still the truth tho

– Asked an NFL personnel exec _ one who has a great deal of respect for Davis _ to assess whether the owner would be partial to Texas Tech wide receiver Michael Crabtree or Missouri’s Jeremy Maclin.

“You know he likes Maclin because of the 40 time,” he said. “You also know who the best player is, don’t you?”

I admitted that there were probably some 40-plus salaried personnel men in the building who were better qualified to judge.

“It’s Crabtree.”

I asked whether it was difficult to judge Crabtree because done so much damage against Big 12 defenses in a pass-happy offense.

“Not really. It’s tougher to judge quarterbacks,” he said. “You can see them catch the ball in traffic, break on the ball, jump and make plays. And you get to see it more than you do with receivers in other offenses. They only run about four different routes, so that’s not a big thing. You can teach the routes.”

[Sonny Cheeba]

^^ Cool, I remember reading that blurb. And it's true too, that the QBs are the ones that should be put under the bigger microscope. The WRs are more cut-and-dry, and furthermore, look at those USC WRs that played in their pro-style offense. Mike Williams and Dwayne Jarret have been collosal busts, the best one lately has been Steve Smith from the Giants.

[Don]

Yeah. QB's are always a crapshoot. Last years QB's were diamonds in the rough. I personally think the sleeper QB in this draft is Hunter Cantwell. He has the physique, arm, and maturity to make the transition to at least a decent staring QB.

Yeah, they say NC runs the closest to a real NFL offense, which makes Nicks such an intriguing pick, and honestly, the guy has some hands, but I still dont think that makes him the best.

[Sonny Cheeba]

Yeah. QB's are always a crapshoot. Last years QB's were diamonds in the rough. I personally think the sleeper QB in this draft is Hunter Cantwell. He has the physique, arm, and maturity to make the transition to at least a decent staring QB.

Yeah, they say NC runs the closest to a real NFL offense, which makes Nicks such an intriguing pick, and honestly, the guy has some hands, but I still dont think that makes him the best.
Nicks and Crabtree are similar players, although I believe Crabtree is still the cream of the WR crop. I read recently that since injuring his hammy at the combine Nicks has gotten up to about 225-230 lbs, instead of playing weight of around 210-215.

However, Nicks won't be there for us in the 2nd round. The 20's we should see a huge run on the WRs, with Minny, Philly, The Giants, Tennessee, Baltimore and Miami all in the mix.

[MOST-ILL]

Unlike the first time...this time I would welcome crabs,,,lmfao

[Don]

Nicks and Crabtree are similar players, although I believe Crabtree is still the cream of the WR crop. I read recently that since injuring his hammy at the combine Nicks has gotten up to about 225-230 lbs, instead of playing weight of around 210-215.

However, Nicks won't be there for us in the 2nd round. The 20's we should see a huge run on the WRs, with Minny, Philly, The Giants, Tennessee, Baltimore and Miami all in the mix.

They said he was back to 216 at his pro day, so no worries there. HE is def. gone by the second round, no QA. Still cant get over that behind the back move he pulled at his bowl game.

Unlike the first time...this time I would welcome crabs,,,lmfao

:laughing You're on fire, my dude! Picking Crabs is only cool on draft day fo sho!

[-GG-]

Who knows, everyone including the Raiders almost are saying Crabtree is too slow. Probably the pick if he's there. Davis will want to see him run tho.

But that's why we have Miller, possession receiver, if we can get Tackles that can block, then Miller can run more routes.

I think the Raiders need to go OT or DT or LB.

[Don]

Who knows, everyone including the Raiders almost are saying Crabtree is too slow. Probably the pick if he's there. Davis will want to see him run tho.

But that's why we have Miller, possession receiver, if we can get Tackles that can block, then Miller can run more routes.

I think the Raiders need to go OT or DT or LB.

Curious to know which LB you think is worthy of a contract like the #7 dictates, cuz Curry will be long gone..

[-GG-]

Just saying if we wanted Curry we'd move up. Or we trade back and take Clay Matthews or Brian Cushing.

If Raji is gone, and the best tackles are gone by #7. With our 2nd rounder we could also trade back up or sit for an OT or DT at that time. Like say Evander Hood or Britton.

[Sonny Cheeba]

Who knows, everyone including the Raiders almost are saying Crabtree is too slow. Probably the pick if he's there. Davis will want to see him run tho.

But that's why we have Miller, possession receiver, if we can get Tackles that can block, then Miller can run more routes.

I think the Raiders need to go OT or DT or LB.
But that's the thing, Miller is a TE and we still lack a go-to WR. Higgins and Schillens are question marks and Javon Walker cannot be counted on.

I really don't think we would go after Barnes and Pears if we were looking at OT 7th overall. Especially since the top 2 will be gone and you could argue that guys like Britton or Beatty can do just as well as Andre and Oher.

I am seriously ready for anything. If we took Andre Smith I would be pissed but not shocked. Also I know it's not Al's MO but don't rule out a trade down. Should be very interesting. I still want Crabtree though. :cool:

[-GG-]

But that's the thing, Miller is a TE and we still lack a go-to WR. Higgins and Schillens are question marks and Javon Walker cannot be counted on.

I really don't think we would go after Barnes and Pears if we were looking at OT 7th overall. Especially since the top 2 will be gone and you could argue that guys like Britton or Beatty can do just as well as Andre and Oher.

I am seriously ready for anything. If we took Andre Smith I would be pissed but not shocked. Also I know it's not Al's MO but don't rule out a trade down. Should be very interesting. I still want Crabtree though. :cool:

Robiskie for WR. He will start right away and be a possession receiver that is needed while guys like Higgins (slot) and Schilens can develop as deeper threats.

No need to blow a load on a WR in the top 10 but address the core problems of the team (OT, DT, LB).

[cheapshotartist]

Robiskie for WR. He will start right away and be a possession receiver that is needed while guys like Higgins (slot) and Schilens can develop as deeper threats.

No need to blow a load on a WR in the top 10 but address the core problems of the team (OT, DT, LB).

I agree Robiskie is the real deal. Defensive Line!!!! :csa:

[-GG-]

I agree Robiskie is the real deal. Defensive Line!!!! :csa:

You and me should dress up in Al Davis and Tom Cable costumes and go to New York.

[Don]

Robiskie for WR. He will start right away and be a possession receiver that is needed while guys like Higgins (slot) and Schilens can develop as deeper threats.

No need to blow a load on a WR in the top 10 but address the core problems of the team (OT, DT, LB).

I would be stoked on Brien R. Think Ron Curry but a bit faster, waaay better hands and not scared to stretch out in traffic for a ball..And he shows up in big games.

Just watched the Holy Roller play and who came running in to congratulate Casper, but ol man Robiskie.

[yayarea_raider]

Raiders are in the perfect situation to trade down with Jacksonville looking for a receiver at 8 and Philli in possession of two first round picks looking to satisfy McNabb with a flashy receiver.

[Sonny Cheeba]

Robiskie for WR. He will start right away and be a possession receiver that is needed while guys like Higgins (slot) and Schilens can develop as deeper threats.

No need to blow a load on a WR in the top 10 but address the core problems of the team (OT, DT, LB).
Thing is, WR is every bit a need as any other position. 22 catches from your leading wideout is totally unacceptable. I know we might be able to get Robiskie in the 2nd but we could also have a shot at Ron Brace, Peria Jerry or the DT Hood from Mizzou.

In the top 10 we really need to take the BPA. Now obviously different teams have their draft boards set up differently, but you really can't go wrong picking the best player available when you have as many holes as we do.

[-GG-]

I would be stoked on Brien R. Think Ron Curry but a bit faster, waaay better hands and not scared to stretch out in traffic for a ball..And he shows up in big games.

Just watched the Holy Roller play and who came running in to congratulate Casper, but ol man Robiskie.

And he's fast for a big guy....which ticks the "speed" box for Davis.

[-GG-]

Raiders are in the perfect situation to trade down with Jacksonville looking for a receiver at 8 and Philli in possession of two first round picks looking to satisfy McNabb with a flashy receiver.

Exactly, at #7 a lot of the best Linemen/LB are gone, so ideal to move back a few spots, score an extra pick too, like say a 3rd, to use to move back up into the 2nd to get a player like Robiskie after addressing DT/OT/LB with our traded down mid-first and 2nd.

Thing is, WR is every bit a need as any other position. 22 catches from your leading wideout is totally unacceptable. I know we might be able to get Robiskie in the 2nd but we could also have a shot at Ron Brace, Peria Jerry or the DT Hood from Mizzou.

In the top 10 we really need to take the BPA. Now obviously different teams have their draft boards set up differently, but you really can't go wrong picking the best player available when you have as many holes as we do.

Ron Brace im not big on. Raji > Brace. Brace a UT. Hood a UT with more ability to get into the backfield than Brace. Jerry would be a good DT.

Basically....the guys I'd like to see us consider (trading down) if Raji/OT are gone at #7....

Jerry, Hood, Britton, Robiskie, Matthews/Cushing.

[yayarea_raider]

Thing is, WR is every bit a need as any other position. 22 catches from your leading wideout is totally unacceptable. I know we might be able to get Robiskie in the 2nd but we could also have a shot at Ron Brace, Peria Jerry or the DT Hood from Mizzou.

In the top 10 we really need to take the BPA. Now obviously different teams have their draft boards set up differently, but you really can't go wrong picking the best player available when you have as many holes as we do.

I disagree. I think picking a receiver in the first would not be wise. They must go BPA on defense. That run defense is atrocious. Going with Warren and Sands is really just doing the same thing as last year.

I think they surprise ppl and trade down for the first time in a while with the Jags lookin to get the best WR at 8 and Philli in possession of 2 first round picks. They should really pick a NT-not UT I mean someone who can plya mothafuggin NT!

This should be a list of how the Raiders draft:

-defense (NT/DE/LB)
-defense (NT/DE/LB)
-safety/OT/receiver in any order

run defense should be the biggest concern for the Raiders above ALL ELSE.

[-GG-]

yayarea_raider, you should also find a John Herrera costume and join me and CSA in New York.

[yayarea_raider]

Basically....the guys I'd like to see us consider (trading down) if Raji/OT are gone at #7....

Jerry, Hood, Britton, Robiskie, Matthews/Cushing.

Imagine getting a NT and Cushing :stir:

I say a NT because I'm not sure they draft Raji, but I am sure that they will draft one of the following (ppl who can play at the position) NT's:

1)Raji 1a) Brace
2)S. Lee Hill
3) C. Baker
4) T. Knighton
5) A. Dixon

I've heard many draft guru's claim Brace could play nose though GG, what makes you think he can't considering Ive heard that he coud even play nose in a 3-4?

[-GG-]

Imagine getting a NT and Cushing :stir:

I say a NT because I'm not sure they draft Raji, but I am sure that they will draft one of the following (ppl who can play at the position) NT's:

1)Raji 1a) Brace
2)S. Lee Hill
3) C. Baker
4) T. Knighton
5) A. Dixon

I've heard many draft guru's claim Brace could play nose though GG, what makes you think he can't considering Ive heard that he coud even play nose in a 3-4?

At Boston, Raji was playing NT in the 4-3, getting double-teamed, with Brace at UT, and check out the stats and vision of them....Raji was man-handling the double-teams, getting penetration, making more tackles and hurries, etc. While Brace 1-on-1 was getting schooled, had less stats than Raji. That says he cant handle the 3-4 NT or 4-3 NT. Would get eaten alive by NFL OLmen.

[yayarea_raider]

At Boston, Raji was playing NT in the 4-3, getting double-teamed, with Brace at UT, and check out the stats and vision of them....Raji was man-handling the double-teams, getting penetration, making more tackles and hurries, etc. While Brace 1-on-1 was getting schooled, had less stats than Raji. That says he cant handle the 3-4 NT or 4-3 NT. Would get eaten alive by NFL OLmen.

But weren't they interchangeable throughout the season? I have seen some film of Raji 1 on 1 and Brace taking on the double team as well

[-GG-]

That'd be the exception not the rule at Boston. Teams soon figured out Raji was the threat. If we're talking dominant NT at the Raiders, then you need to get the guy who is head and shoulders the best NT in the draft, not another project either.

[yayarea_raider]

That'd be the exception not the rule at Boston. Teams soon figured out Raji was the threat. If we're talking dominant NT at the Raiders, then you need to get the guy who is head and shoulders the best NT in the draft, not another project either.

Which NT do you like after Raji?

[-GG-]

Which NT do you like after Raji?

Peria Jerry, you?

[Don]

Ziggy Hood is nice. I'm not mad at Moala either in a later round

[-GG-]

Hood and Perry are both nice. Hood is UT, Perry played a lot of UT too, but he has the makings of a NT.

[yayarea_raider]

Peria Jerry, you?

don't you think he's undersized to play nose in the NFL? Dude was changin back in forth from UT to NT and has been under 300lbs. I think he's strictly a UT

I like T. Knighton, and think he is a sleeper and would be an upgrade over Warren or Sands at NT

[-GG-]

don't you think he's undersized to play nose in the NFL? Dude was changin back in forth from UT to NT and has been under 300lbs. I think he's strictly a UT

I like T. Knighton, and think he is a sleeper and would be an upgrade over Warren or Sands at NT

Well, that's the thing....if we want a dominant NT, true NT, we should go for Raji, the best of the lot. Otherwise, we're just looking at UTs in the NFL in Brace, Hood, Perry, Moala, especially as Sands is still there as the touted NT having to step up. But even with Warren/Sands, drafting a DT would still be a good choice. Just a matter of whether to blow a #7 on a WR who touches the ball 5 times a game, or an every-down DT who is needed to sure up the run-defense. Trade back and get a DT/LB is what I would do, and getting Robiskie probably, then another OT for back-up later.

We also might need to look at a FB by around round 4 or 5.

[-GG-]

Also, Terrence Knighton is a good sleeper pick. He's a project tho, still has technique issues that will need to be worked on, and he isnt as strong at the point of attack as he projects on paper. But that's the whole dilemma....

Do you shoot for Raji or do you go Crabtree/DHB/Maclin/etc at #7 purely because they're mocked there and then go for a project DT later? Too many projects imo. We need guys to step right in.

But the thing is, my opinion is just opinion, no more or less than anyone's.

[Sonny Cheeba]

You could easily make both arguments....

Take the DT/DE early and then you find a WR later in the draft. Or take the WR and find defensive help later on. I just think we need to take the best player. I'm also willing to bet that the majority of teams out there have Crabtree rated higher on their draft board than Raji or Orakpo. I would love any of those 3 players, because IMO any one of them can step in week 1 and be a productive starter.

However when it comes to do it, I just think that Crabtree is the better player/prospect. I have no clue what the Raiders' draft board looks like, or if they even have a draft board. I could be horribly wrong and Crabtree could bust. But ANY draft pick could bust. Hell Raji might end up being an overweight dope-smoking turd for all we know.

But the most important player on the Raiders is Jamarcus Russell. Other people have other top priorities, (again this is just my opinion) but I think getting him a legit no. 1 target should be our top priority. Especially after acquiring Satele, Barnes and Pears to shore up the OL.

Flame away. :roc:

[-GG-]

You could easily make both arguments....

Take the DT/DE early and then you find a WR later in the draft. Or take the WR and find defensive help later on. I just think we need to take the best player. I'm also willing to bet that the majority of teams out there have Crabtree rated higher on their draft board than Raji or Orakpo. I would love any of those 3 players, because IMO any one of them can step in week 1 and be a productive starter.

However when it comes to do it, I just think that Crabtree is the better player/prospect. I have no clue what the Raiders' draft board looks like, or if they even have a draft board. I could be horribly wrong and Crabtree could bust. But ANY draft pick could bust. Hell Raji might end up being an overweight dope-smoking turd for all we know.

But the most important player on the Raiders is Jamarcus Russell. Other people have other top priorities, (again this is just my opinion) but I think getting him a legit no. 1 target should be our top priority. Especially after acquiring Satele, Barnes and Pears to shore up the OL.

Flame away. :roc:

This is how I see it....

Russell is a big-armed QB, with our new OC, we're gonna throw more vertically. No WR can separate and JR will continue to panic and throw the ball into double/triple coverage or fumble getting pressured. WRs are over-stated in importance imo.

Meanwhile, our front 7 needs to become a top 10 defense if the Raiders have any hope of winning the division. Crabtree/etc will see the ball 5 times a game. DT/LB are every down. We need a dominant MLB and a dominant NT.

If we came away with Raji and Cushing/Matthews, for instance, that would be an A+ draft just from those two picks alone. If we came away with Crabtree and another DB that's just silliness, and the 2008 Raiders would be the 2009 Raiders still.

People are obviously in love with Crabtree and prize the sexy players, but DT, LB, OT are what the Raiders need. Grabbing Crabtree at #7 just because he's there isn't good enough attempt at addressing our needs. Raiders need to work harder and move up or down because #7 this year we're in a catch-22 situation where the best NT and OT's and LB are gone.

[Sonny Cheeba]

This is how I see it....

Russell is a big-armed QB, with our new OC, we're gonna throw more vertically. No WR can separate and JR will continue to panic and throw the ball into double/triple coverage or fumble getting pressured. WRs are over-stated in importance imo.

Meanwhile, our front 7 needs to become a top 10 defense if the Raiders have any hope of winning the division. Crabtree/etc will see the ball 5 times a game. DT/LB are every down. We need a dominant MLB and a dominant NT.

If we came away with Raji and Cushing/Matthews, for instance, that would be an A+ draft just from those two picks alone. If we came away with Crabtree and another DB that's just silliness, and the 2008 Raiders would be the 2009 Raiders still.

People are obviously in love with Crabtree and prize the sexy players, but DT, LB, OT are what the Raiders need. Grabbing Crabtree at #7 just because he's there isn't good enough attempt at addressing our needs. Raiders need to work harder and move up or down because #7 this year we're in a catch-22 situation where the best NT and OT's and LB are gone.
That's a legit argument. However, I question if we're truly going to be a vertical team. Cable will still be calling the plays and Hackett/Tollner will be working with Russell and on the passing game, and those guys are more WCO/running game type of guys.

Also I never said Crabtree and then a DB, because ANY DB would be silly in the top 2 picks. Matthews/Cushing would be great additions, problem is neither of them warrant the 7th pick and they'll both be gone by the 40th pick, no unless we're trading down I don't think we can consider either one.

And if you look closely at our team recently, the offense has been just as poor as the defense. The Bills and Dolts games the defense played great, but the offense was totally inept and unable to move the ball and/or score points, we lost both of them because of our offensive shortcomings. The last time this team was relevant was with a decent defense and a highly efficient offense. And let's say Crabtree does indeed touch the ball 5 times....and he scores 1 TD and picks up 3 or 4 crucial 1st downs. That helps keep the defense off the field, and our offense has been a 3 and out machine lately so I'm sure they would appreciate the extra rest.

[-GG-]

1. I didnt mean my post to suggest you were saying Crabtree/DHB/Maclin + DB....I meant more what Al Davis might be inclined to do going the sexy picks.

2. The argument is there two ways, like you said earlier. Grabbing a WR early and going a UT/LB later. But Id be happier if we traded up or traded down to where the value/need is. Where we sit at #7 is just WRs and DBs and DEs/OLBs. All things that are less important to our team needs.

3. I dont think there's a big difference between Crabtree and Robiskie, in what you get from either. I'd actually put Robiskie ahead of Crabtree. Only two WRs that really interest me are Nicks and Robiskie. Crabtree is good, but he's not a Calvin Johnson/Fitzgerald either that commands an early 1st round pick.

4. My pov is that whomever we draft should be an immediate starter, not more projects. DHB/Maclin would be projects. Knighton in the later rounds would still be a project. Some 5th round LB would be a project.

5. Basically, it really comes down to what we do on the night. Who's available, and if there are teams willing to trade up for Crabtree so we can move down, earn a pick, and get the BPA in the middle of the 1st. Or if we want to shoot for Raji and trade up. It's very likely that we'll need to move up/down because if we sit we'll likely reach or blow a pick on something like DHB, for instance, when the front seven is screaming for help.

6. Here's a question for you.....Crabtree and Raji and Curry and the OTs are gone by #7.....so what do you do?

[Sonny Cheeba]

RE #6. If all of them are gone, I would desperately try to trade down to a team that has the hots for Sanchez or Stafford. Failing that, I would probably take Orakpo. Pass-rushers are always at a premium and IMO this guy can absolutely play DE in a 4-3 and isn't strictly an OLB in 3-4 at the next level. These 'tweener type guys can be risky, but Orakpo was productive in college and nowadays there are tons of 4-3 DEs right around his size of 6-3 265.

[Sonny Cheeba]

^^ Adding to that, if the Raiders have Everette Brown higher on their draft board then he could be the pick. Very similar player to Orakpo, although I think he is more likely of the two to become a 3-4 OLB.

[-GG-]

Orakpo if he's not taken would be a very good BPA if you had to take someone at #7.

I like Larry English just as much, if not more, but he's a 2nd rounder that could be had there. Ie, trade down, get LB then English and still have another 2nd for an OT or WR or DT.

[yayarea_raider]

This is how I see it....

Russell is a big-armed QB, with our new OC, we're gonna throw more vertically. No WR can separate and JR will continue to panic and throw the ball into double/triple coverage or fumble getting pressured. WRs are over-stated in importance imo.

Meanwhile, our front 7 needs to become a top 10 defense if the Raiders have any hope of winning the division. Crabtree/etc will see the ball 5 times a game. DT/LB are every down. We need a dominant MLB and a dominant NT.

If we came away with Raji and Cushing/Matthews, for instance, that would be an A+ draft just from those two picks alone. If we came away with Crabtree and another DB that's just silliness, and the 2008 Raiders would be the 2009 Raiders still.

People are obviously in love with Crabtree and prize the sexy players, but DT, LB, OT are what the Raiders need. Grabbing Crabtree at #7 just because he's there isn't good enough attempt at addressing our needs. Raiders need to work harder and move up or down because #7 this year we're in a catch-22 situation where the best NT and OT's and LB are gone.

Russell is going to throw 20+ TD's this year with less than 8 INT's

[yayarea_raider]

That's a legit argument. However, I question if we're truly going to be a vertical team. Cable will still be calling the plays and Hackett/Tollner will be working with Russell and on the passing game, and those guys are more WCO/running game type of guys.



Yupppppppppp..................this is going to be some WCO

[Boom]

Ziggy Hood is nice. I'm not mad at Moala either in a later round

Moala is a sleeper.. The thing about Moala is that he gets lazy at times and doesn't go full throttle every down. But when his engine is on, it's on.

[Boom]

Russell is going to throw 20+ TD's this year with less than 8 INT's

That's really going out on a limb considering that in two seasons Russell has thrown 15 touch downs and 12 interceptions. He started 15 games last season and one game his rookie season. I mean, I'm all for it, but damn, I'm just saying. In order for that to happen he needs just about the whole team to step up and up their game.

[or24]

Just saying if we wanted Curry we'd move up. Or we trade back and take Clay Matthews or Brian Cushing.

If Raji is gone, and the best tackles are gone by #7. With our 2nd rounder we could also trade back up or sit for an OT or DT at that time. Like say Evander Hood or Britton.
I personally think the Raiders are content with our linebackers, as scary as that is...

[or24]

Russell is going to throw 20+ TD's this year with less than 8 INT's
If only he had Preyton Manning's brain...and arm.

[Boom]

I personally think the Raiders are content with our linebackers, as scary as that is...

Yeah dude, our linebacker core is built for speed.

[yayarea_raider]

That's really going out on a limb considering that in two seasons Russell has thrown 15 touch downs and 12 interceptions. He started 15 games last season and one game his rookie season. I mean, I'm all for it, but damn, I'm just saying. In order for that to happen he needs just about the whole team to step up and up their game.

If only he had Preyton Manning's brain...and arm.

You know what...let me re-phrase that prediction once the draft is over and it's pre-season time.

[Bump]

I would be happy if Crabtree was 75% the receiver Wayne is. And if we drafted him of course... Pending he is available.

[yayarea_raider]

I would be happy if Crabtree was 75% the receiver Wayne is. And if we drafted him of course... Pending he is available.

I'm hoping for Ramses Barden to be drafted by the Raiders. 6'6...20 straight games with a reception-and has a catch of 25+ yards in every game this past yr I heard. He's more polished than Crabtree or Maclin.

[Miklo]

I'm hoping for Ramses Barden to be drafted by the Raiders. 6'6...20 straight games with a reception-and has a catch of 25+ yards in every game this past yr I heard. He's more polished than Crabtree or Maclin.

You're trippin' if you think Ramses Barden is more polished than Crabtree, even Maclin. He played against even weaker competition than they did, can't seem to use his size to his advantage, and even drops JUMP balls! When you're 6'6 and the ball is guaranteed to at least hit your hands, and you drop it?! He is a physical specimen indeed, but to say he is more polished than either of the top 2 receivers is ridiculous. There's a reason he isn't even listed in the top 10 at his position, and it isn't because of he's polished.

[Bump]

That'd be the exception not the rule at Boston. Teams soon figured out Raji was the threat. If we're talking dominant NT at the Raiders, then you need to get the guy who is head and shoulders the best NT in the draft, not another project either.

And you are also talking about the stupidest player in the draft.... No Thanks...


After the failed drug test, don't want any part of Raji...


It's one thing if you fail a random drug test administered by the NFL in season. But to fail a drug test that you KNOW is coming down the pipe with such grave consequences on the other end.

That is just a huge , red, dumb flag....

Take a pass on Raji. He is going to be a problem, and not in the slang good sense of the word.

[Bump]

I'm hoping for Ramses Barden to be drafted by the Raiders. 6'6...20 straight games with a reception-and has a catch of 25+ yards in every game this past yr I heard. He's more polished than Crabtree or Maclin.

Dude, Barden is NOWHERE near as polished as Maclin or Crabtree... Sorry Yay.

Show me one highlight reel on any of those 20 TD's where there is a double move on any route he ran...

He has no polish as a route runner.

[Sonny Cheeba]

I'm hoping for Ramses Barden to be drafted by the Raiders. 6'6...20 straight games with a reception-and has a catch of 25+ yards in every game this past yr I heard. He's more polished than Crabtree or Maclin.
Fuckin hilarious yay. Thanks for the laugh my dude. :beer:

[Don]

Fuckin hilarious yay. Thanks for the laugh my dude. :beer:

For real. Go watch Barden's highlight. He's a "I'll run real fast over there, you lob it up and I'll grab it somehow" type of reciever. He DOESN'T run routes. He runs and then trys to catch the ball. He is a super legit red zone target, but a total project in all other facets. It's the total opposite, Crabs is way more polished, and a better reciever, just not as big or tall.

[Boom]

i'm hoping for ramses barden to be drafted by the raiders. 6'6...20 straight games with a reception-and has a catch of 25+ yards in every game this past yr i heard. He's more polished than crabtree or maclin.

lol

[Sonny Cheeba]

For real. Go watch Barden's highlight. He's a "I'll run real fast over there, you lob it up and I'll grab it somehow" type of reciever. He DOESN'T run routes. He runs and then trys to catch the ball. He is a super legit red zone target, but a total project in all other facets. It's the total opposite, Crabs is way more polished, and a better reciever, just not as big or tall.
Not gonna lie, I've never even seen the dude play before outside a few highlights. It's hard to get Division II Cal-Poly games on the tube.

But everything that I've read and every one of the scouting reports say the exact same thing. Incredible size and athletic ability and that's IT. He's the epitome of a project WR that will need a lot of work to succeed at the next level.

[Bump]

For real. Go watch Barden's highlight. He's a "I'll run real fast over there, you lob it up and I'll grab it somehow" type of reciever. He DOESN'T run routes. He runs and then trys to catch the ball. He is a super legit red zone target, but a total project in all other facets. It's the total opposite, Crabs is way more polished, and a better reciever, just not as big or tall.


Hmmmmmmm.... sounds like another receiver drafted out of Marshall some 11 years or so ago.....

But yes...

Not saying Barden will be a bum.... he could very well be a Moss/Plax type receiver. But nowhere near "polished"

He really killed me wit that one LOL

[Bump]

And as per GG...

"Drafting Crabtree just because he is there @ #7 doesn't do well enough to fill our needs....."

Are you serious?

At this juncture how can you justify drafting an underachieving, hard headed , big sloppy and dumb oaf like Raji over a guy like Crabtree who played some beast football and had the well confirmed work ethic to pair it with?

I have heard mention that Raji is a student of the game but I could care less if you're a dumb student. And yes you are dumb if you are smoking trees less than 30 days outside the combine....

And I am going to inform you a little more in detail about THC. They say 30 days til the drug is fully metabolized. Now, if you are a world class athlete.... who plays a physical sport like football... your metabolism will dispose of thc metabolites much faster than 30 days.

Staying away from problem players is even more crucial now that Goodell is bringing the hard on with the 100mg Viagra for them

[-GG-]

1. No one knew Raji was gonna fail a drug test weeks ago, when I posted about Raji. Still, I would take him if I felt Sands was back-up material. Otherwise we need a MLB, like Curry, Matthews/Cushing, not a WR in the first. Fix the OL and front seven.

1b. Plus...

The agents for B.J. Raji adamantly deny that their client failed a drug test at the NFL Scouting Combine, calling SI.com's report "malicious," "cowardly," and "false."
Raji's reps want to keep his stock stable so he can get the biggest contract possible, so of course they're going to say this. But there's plenty of reason to doubt the report. It never even stated which drug Raji tested positive for and Raji was never informed of a failed test by the league.

2. Barden is not polished. He's one of those WRs you have to pass on.

[yayarea_raider]

Fuckin hilarious yay. Thanks for the laugh my dude. :beer:

He sounds polished to me. I don't know a lot about NCAA football, but your seriously telling me you'd take Maclin over Barden? Just because he comes from a smaller school against some "weaker" competition he can't transfer that over to the pros?

Maybe I was saying that just because none of them should be drafted by the Raiders IMO, they should go defense. Barden has played four years though, compared to Crabtree's two.

Either way, I'm tired of this defense stinking it up.

[yayarea_raider]

And as per GG...

"Drafting Crabtree just because he is there @ #7 doesn't do well enough to fill our needs....."

Are you serious?

At this juncture how can you justify drafting an underachieving, hard headed , big sloppy and dumb oaf like Raji over a guy like Crabtree who played some beast football and had the well confirmed work ethic to pair it with?

I have heard mention that Raji is a student of the game but I could care less if you're a dumb student. And yes you are dumb if you are smoking trees less than 30 days outside the combine....

And I am going to inform you a little more in detail about THC. They say 30 days til the drug is fully metabolized. Now, if you are a world class athlete.... who plays a physical sport like football... your metabolism will dispose of thc metabolites much faster than 30 days.

Staying away from problem players is even more crucial now that Goodell is bringing the hard on with the 100mg Viagra for them

I don't give a fuck what anyone says. Ficing that damned run defense...whetehr that means drafting a LB or DL so be it...should be priority 1.

Ppl are blwoing thus wide receiver deal way out of proportion like if we don't select Crabtree the other pick will be a failure.

And for the record, I would take Raji over Crabtree. For what it's worth, there was a report that was false about him smoking.

[or24]

I don't give a fuck what anyone says. Ficing that damned run defense...whetehr that means drafting a LB or DL so be it...should be priority 1.

Ppl are blwoing thus wide receiver deal way out of proportion like if we don't select Crabtree the other pick will be a failure.

And for the record, I would take Raji over Crabtree. For what it's worth, there was a report that was false about him smoking.
You are hell bent on fixing the run defense yay. No offense but I think you need to step back and realize we have other problems as well. I dont what your defense does when your offense cannot score. First downs were hard to come by. Our pass rush was terrible at times last year too. Our defense imo played 3 outstanding games against KC, Buf, and SD. Our offense had a couple decent games and that was pretty much it.

[Bump]

if the needs are addressed ... It really doesn't matter what order they are done in.

Crabtree and Brace is much better than Raji and Robiskie/Barden

[-GG-]

Why is Crabtree-Brace better than Raji-Robiskie if you also insist it doesnt matter what order the needs are addressed???

For the record, Raji-Robiskie ftw.

[-GG-]

The latest....


Boston College DT B.J. Raji says he has been informed that he did not fail a drug test at the NFL scouting combine.
"The biggest thing is trying to figure out how this started," Raji said. "I couldn't understand how this rumor became such a big splash in the media when there was no evidence - there was no substance to believe it. The last couple days, I was just trying to figure out: Who? What? Basically, why?"

Keep in mind, pre-draft, teams are known to spread false rumors about players hoping they fall to them in the draft.

[Bump]

1. No one knew Raji was gonna fail a drug test weeks ago, when I posted about Raji. Still, I would take him if I felt Sands was back-up material. Otherwise we need a MLB, like Curry, Matthews/Cushing, not a WR in the first. Fix the OL and front seven.

1b. Plus...



2. Barden is not polished. He's one of those WRs you have to pass on.

Raji's agents saying Raji didn't fail the drug test holds no merit G

[Bump]

Why is Crabtree-Brace better than Raji-Robiskie if you also insist it doesnt matter what order the needs are addressed???

For the record, Raji-Robiskie ftw.

Why??

Easy...

Because IMO ... Crabtree > Robiskie

and Brace > Raji

pretty simple.

[Bump]

The latest....



Keep in mind, pre-draft, teams are known to spread false rumors about players hoping they fall to them in the draft.

Well, I can understand coming from you G.. You have never been conservative on the subject of conspiracy theories.

[yayarea_raider]

Why??

Easy...

Because IMO ... Crabtree > Robiskie

and Brace > Raji

pretty simple.

:poop:

[yayarea_raider]

You are hell bent on fixing the run defense yay. No offense but I think you need to step back and realize we have other problems as well. I dont what your defense does when your offense cannot score. First downs were hard to come by. Our pass rush was terrible at times last year too. Our defense imo played 3 outstanding games against KC, Buf, and SD. Our offense had a couple decent games and that was pretty much it.

Let's look at it this way or24...

If the season started TODAY.

Which side of the ball would fair better? Let's assume O'neal all healthy as well as Walker.

We got a young group of receivers already battling it out:

JLH, Schillens, Shields, DJ Hall, Watkins, Holland. If we add a vet WR to that group with Walker and add a vet like a Toomer, I think we be alright.

On the OL, I think Henderson was alright and will get better. Anyone of those OT's we signed to compete with Green probably beats him out if Barnes doesn't end up there. Satele at C will give us better movement up front...

The OL and WR core is better already, and the running game with a C that can move and O'neal is back.

Remember we are a RUNNING TEAM-not a passing team although we Cable will look to mix it up.


NOW....if the defense that we have right NOW GOES OUT ONTO THE FIELD TO PLAY...you want to see that?

I can live with what we have on offense, we have a lot of talent there already. We are in the AFC WEST. Larry Johnson. Lad. Tomlinson, Den usually has a good running game with the ZBS they run despite who's running (don't know if they'll keep that however)....

The defensive FRONT 7 needs help. BAD. Plz don't tell me that this team should go offense with their first pick unless it's going to be an OT. I think ppl are just being biased towards drafting Crabtree and will slice it any way they want to make it end up that way.

JMHO

[Don]

Raji's agents saying Raji didn't fail the drug test holds no merit G

Yeah but likewise can and should be said for anyone choosing to believe the barrage of rumors that come out about draft prospects at this time of the year. I think Andre McBoobs' stock didnt fall as far as media outlets were saying it should either.

[Bump]

Yeah but likewise can and should be said for anyone choosing to believe the barrage of rumors that come out about draft prospects at this time of the year. I think Andre McBoobs' stock didnt fall as far as media outlets were saying it should either.


Andre Smithtits ate his way out of the top 10 hands down..... huge salary drop off.

[Nacho Vidal]

I disagree. I think picking a receiver in the first would not be wise. They must go BPA on defense. That run defense is atrocious. Going with Warren and Sands is really just doing the same thing as last year.

I think they surprise ppl and trade down for the first time in a while with the Jags lookin to get the best WR at 8 and Philli in possession of 2 first round picks. They should really pick a NT-not UT I mean someone who can plya mothafuggin NT!

This should be a list of how the Raiders draft:

-defense (NT/DE/LB)
-defense (NT/DE/LB)
-safety/OT/receiver in any order

run defense should be the biggest concern for the Raiders above ALL ELSE.

This is the best POST I have read on this site. Good call. We need to stop the run. Raji round 1 or trade down with Philly. Round 2 Michael Johnson GT he is falling on a lot of boards. Good DE that could be insurance for Burgess. 3rd round get Chip Vaughn from WAKE SS. Or look at Rashad Johnson from BAMA. Get a receiver veteran like Holt or Harrison with a 1 year contract. Then next year get a big time receiver in the draft or free agency. Great post. I couldn't agree more.

[Bump]

Run D or WR it doesn't matter which direction you go in as long as they are both addressed. Which brings up the argument of Raji vs Crabtree if both are available when we pick.

And as far as impact players go you have to draft Crabtree, period. Crabtree will change the dyanmic of this team more than Raji would.

LAgain, the argument for drafting wr vs run d is irrelevant because BOTH needs WILL be addressed this draft.

You are arguing the impact of Raji vs Crabtree. Crabtree will bring more impact to this team.

Even in a situation with Raji vs Orakpo you have to think twice when pulling the trigger on Raji because premier pass rushers are at a huge premium as well. And I dare anybody to argue we rush the passer any better than we press the run.

[Bump]

Run D or WR it doesn't matter which direction you go in as long as they are both addressed. Which brings up the argument of Raji vs Crabtree if both are available when we pick.

And as far as impact players go you have to draft Crabtree, period. Crabtree will change the dyanmic of this team more than Raji would.

LAgain, the argument for drafting wr vs run d is irrelevant because BOTH needs WILL be addressed this draft.

You are arguing the impact of Raji vs Crabtree. Crabtree will bring more impact to this team.

Even in a situation with Raji vs Orakpo you have to think twice when pulling the trigger on Raji because premier pass rushers are at a huge premium as well. And I dare anybody to argue we rush the passer any better than we press the run.

[yayarea_raider]

This is the best POST I have read on this site. Good call. We need to stop the run. Raji round 1 or trade down with Philly. Round 2 Michael Johnson GT he is falling on a lot of boards. Good DE that could be insurance for Burgess. 3rd round get Chip Vaughn from WAKE SS. Or look at Rashad Johnson from BAMA. Get a receiver veteran like Holt or Harrison with a 1 year contract. Then next year get a big time receiver in the draft or free agency. Great post. I couldn't agree more.

Thanks.

It will be interesting to see what the Raiders do. If they keep the pick and take Crabtree (if he's there), then who do they pikc with their 2nd? a Brace or Moala?

An OT like Beatty if he's there? I'm really looking forward to the draft.

I'm just hoping they come out of it with:

A) A defensive lineman that can play the run and improve the front 7 from day one. Particularly a NT, but I think they will draft a NT and DE, just don't know when they will. They could also shop Burgess, but hes in the last yr of his deal so they should keep him.

B) A strong side/mike linebacker that has good instincts, and plays the run well. Someone who doesn't overpursue

C) An athletic OT that can eventually start in the ZBS scheme they run

D) A safety who can tackle first and foremost. Not sold on that front 7 and with Wilson gone someone is going to have to pick up the slack. I like Bama's Rashad Johnson in the 4th.

E) Someone who can either move the chains (how Curry was for us, but better) by getting good speration and good ability to get open and/or someone who can stretch the field. I do not think they should address this early, as there can be a couple good receivers had in the 3rd. However, I would betthey pick a receiver within the 1st two rounds.

F) A blocking tight end with some ability.

[Skern]

Thanks.

It will be interesting to see what the Raiders do. If they keep the pick and take Crabtree (if he's there), then who do they pikc with their 2nd? a Brace or Moala?

An OT like Beatty if he's there? I'm really looking forward to the draft.

I'm just hoping they come out of it with:

A) A defensive lineman that can play the run and improve the front 7 from day one. Particularly a NT, but I think they will draft a NT and DE, just don't know when they will. They could also shop Burgess, but hes in the last yr of his deal so they should keep him.

B) A strong side/mike linebacker that has good instincts, and plays the run well. Someone who doesn't overpursue

C) An athletic OT that can eventually start in the ZBS scheme they run

D) A safety who can tackle first and foremost. Not sold on that front 7 and with Wilson gone someone is going to have to pick up the slack. I like Bama's Rashad Johnson in the 4th.

E) Someone who can either move the chains (how Curry was for us, but better) by getting good speration and good ability to get open and/or someone who can stretch the field. I do not think they should address this early, as there can be a couple good receivers had in the 3rd. However, I would betthey pick a receiver within the 1st two rounds.

F) A blocking tight end with some ability.

We have one already. His name is Zach Miller

[or24]

We have one already. His name is Zach Miller
Hell yea. Another would help but with Oren Oneal we dont need to run as many big sets. So a 2nd TE isnt real neccesary. Like Russell needs to learn more plays and formations lol...

[yayarea_raider]

We have one already. His name is Zach Miller

yeah, but the point is to free up Miller- not to keep him in to block ALL THE TIME.

[Skern]

yeah, but the point is to free up Miller- not to keep him in to block ALL THE TIME.

Yeah I see where your coming from but if we get a better O line that should do the job.

[Miklo]

Yeah I see where your coming from but if we get a better O line that should do the job.

Agreed; how often does Antonio Gates have to block in the passing game? Manumaleuna doesn't get that much playing time. It comes down to the offensive line completing the task assigned to them (blocking the defensive line).